I'm about to go effing Libertarian

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Modeler
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I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#1 Post by Modeler » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:55 pm

Yesterday I went to a local sporting goods store and purchased a suppressor. He put it in the safe and sent me home with the Form 4's. I filled them out in the name of my Trust and sent them off today. This evening he e-mails, says a customer came in and told him that he had called the ATF and all trust applications not yet approved will be sent back for information on all responsible parties. The "Executive Order" (which now, a week later, has still not been published for anyone to see) was supposed to have started a 90-day comment period, not make an arbitrary new rule.

Which for me means photos and fingerprints from three people and potential CLEO signoffs in two counties, all so that my wife can have legal access to it when I'm not home and she won't have to deal with the intricacies of NFA transfers and selling it when I die. I'd be ok with just my needing submit everything, but all 3 of us?

FUCK YOU AND YOUR STUPID, KNEE-JERK, POINTLESS GUN CONTROL SCHEMES BARACK OBAMA

(The needless new school zone at the local high school is also pushing me over the edge a little; in this specific instance it kind of smacks of knee-jerk gun control laws as well)
"Be weird; pay with cash!" - Dave Ramsey

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#2 Post by Modeler » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:03 pm

Another thing; the forms to submit multiple photographs, fingerprints and CLEO signoffs aren't event available. There's quite literally no way to comply with this directive at this moment.
"Be weird; pay with cash!" - Dave Ramsey

"Come visit us again and again. This is a state of excitement. But for heaven's sake, don't come here to live." - Tom McCall, 30th Governor of Oregon

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#3 Post by particleman » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:00 am

1) I'm 99% certain that the other customer is full of bovine excrement.

2) The executive order, as drafted, removes the CLEO signoff for all Class III purchases, even individual, and now requires the photographs, fingerprints and background check for all trustees/officers of non-individual purchases.

(Shit. I'm wrong on this point. Fuck, fuck, fuck. I can't get LEO approval in King County, Washington).

3) You should submit your paperwork and see what the ATF says.
Last edited by particleman on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#4 Post by Modeler » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:03 am

particleman wrote:1) I'm 99% certain that the other customer is full of bovine excrement.

2) The executive order, as drafted, removes the CLEO signoff for all Class III purchases, even individual, and now requires the photographs, fingerprints and background check for all trustees/officers of non-individual purchases.

3) You should submit your paperwork and see what the ATF says.
That would be wonderful. I haven't been able to find the actual Executive Order; do you have a link to it?
"Be weird; pay with cash!" - Dave Ramsey

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#5 Post by ErikO » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:09 am

Modeler wrote:
particleman wrote:1) I'm 99% certain that the other customer is full of bovine excrement.

2) The executive order, as drafted, removes the CLEO signoff for all Class III purchases, even individual, and now requires the photographs, fingerprints and background check for all trustees/officers of non-individual purchases.

3) You should submit your paperwork and see what the ATF says.
That would be wonderful. I haven't been able to find the actual Executive Order; do you have a link to it?

Here's the First Proposal. No formal one has been filed so the 90 day public comment period has NOT started/ https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files ... rearms.pdf
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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#6 Post by Modeler » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:22 am

ErikO wrote:
Modeler wrote:
particleman wrote:1) I'm 99% certain that the other customer is full of bovine excrement.

2) The executive order, as drafted, removes the CLEO signoff for all Class III purchases, even individual, and now requires the photographs, fingerprints and background check for all trustees/officers of non-individual purchases.

3) You should submit your paperwork and see what the ATF says.
That would be wonderful. I haven't been able to find the actual Executive Order; do you have a link to it?

Here's the First Proposal. No formal one has been filed so the 90 day public comment period has NOT started/ https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files ... rearms.pdf
It's pretty clearly stated on page 21 and again on page 30 that each responsible person requires a CLEO signoff. What a bunch of fuckers.

(Edited: I notice you saw that too...)

FWIW, one workaround I've seen posted on a different forum involves removing everyone but the trustmaker from the trust via amendment, sending the trust in and then adding them back in after the paperwork has been submitted to the ATF.
"Be weird; pay with cash!" - Dave Ramsey

"Come visit us again and again. This is a state of excitement. But for heaven's sake, don't come here to live." - Tom McCall, 30th Governor of Oregon

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#7 Post by Modeler » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:31 am

Looking at the document, on pages 31-34 it discusses the amount of extra time and expenditure (estimated at $30.80/hour for some reason) and gives a table of the results on page 35. I think they underestimate the time requirement, especially on the CLEO signoff portion (most counties in Oregon require you to drop the paperwork off and pick it up later, and also charge a fee).

The total? 3 hours and 40 minutes per person.
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"Come visit us again and again. This is a state of excitement. But for heaven's sake, don't come here to live." - Tom McCall, 30th Governor of Oregon

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#8 Post by particleman » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:29 am

Modeler wrote:That would be wonderful. I haven't been able to find the actual Executive Order; do you have a link to it?
http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/08/30/a- ... -proposal/

So the current proposal removes the text that the LEO must sign to remove the "belief that the individual would not use the weapon in a crime" or whatever. But now everyone needs CLEO approval.

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#9 Post by Modeler » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:33 am

And affirming that the person in the photo is the person who submitted the fingerprints and is submitting the form.
"Be weird; pay with cash!" - Dave Ramsey

"Come visit us again and again. This is a state of excitement. But for heaven's sake, don't come here to live." - Tom McCall, 30th Governor of Oregon

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#10 Post by Modeler » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:30 pm

An update from my FFL:

Just talked to ATF today and nothing has happened and he is not sure how it will play out.

So that's a little better, but not wholly comforting.
"Be weird; pay with cash!" - Dave Ramsey

"Come visit us again and again. This is a state of excitement. But for heaven's sake, don't come here to live." - Tom McCall, 30th Governor of Oregon

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#11 Post by Modeler » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:43 pm

Another note for those who'd CLEO's won't sign... There is more than one CLEO that may be applicable to your situation.

From the ATF's FAQ website:

"As provided by regulations, certifications by the local chief of police, sheriff of the county, head of the State police, or State or local district attorney or prosecutor are acceptable"

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... ifications

So, just because your Chief of Police or Sheriff won't sign doesn't mean your State Police head or District Attorneys won't. The new regulations don't propose to change this.
"Be weird; pay with cash!" - Dave Ramsey

"Come visit us again and again. This is a state of excitement. But for heaven's sake, don't come here to live." - Tom McCall, 30th Governor of Oregon

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#12 Post by don1960lp » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:45 pm

Modeler wrote:FUCK YOU AND YOUR STUPID, KNEE-JERK, POINTLESS GUN CONTROL SCHEMES SITTING D-PRESIDENT
Fixed. Jeez. Why do so many folks around here not understand politics?

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#13 Post by Fukshot » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:37 pm

don1960lp wrote:
Modeler wrote:FUCK YOU AND YOUR STUPID, KNEE-JERK, POINTLESS GUN CONTROL SCHEMES SITTING D-PRESIDENT
Fixed. Jeez. Why do so many folks around here not understand politics?
??

I don't remember any pointless gun control schemes from Carter.

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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#14 Post by KVoimakas » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:35 pm

Fukshot wrote:
don1960lp wrote:
Modeler wrote:FUCK YOU AND YOUR STUPID, KNEE-JERK, POINTLESS GUN CONTROL SCHEMES SITTING D-PRESIDENT
Fixed. Jeez. Why do so many folks around here not understand politics?
??

I don't remember any pointless gun control schemes from Carter.
And don't forget the BS under Reagan or Bush I.
Truth good. Fire bad. Tree pretty.
Educate an anti: open carry where legal.
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Re: I'm about to go effing Libertarian

#15 Post by nicki » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:12 am

If we are to protect not just gun rignts, but all of our rights then we need to stay Iinvolved with both the major parties because to be effective, we need to make changes from within the system.

We need to purge gun control from within the Democratic party because gun control swings enough elections to get wacko republicans elected.

If the Republicans lose the gun vote, then they will have to find more reasonable candidates to run for office to win elections.

Since this is the Liberal Gun Club, I think we need to look at the rest of the bill of rights and see how our elected officials rate across the spectrum.

Nicki

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