Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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I have a friend who's had a bit of trouble in his neighborhood and near his work. With redneck bigots getting bolder recently, a small gay man walking to work and walking or riding the bus home after midnight is an easy target. We've been out shooting before, he's expressed interest in getting a gun, but doesn't make a lot of money and I don't think he can fit one in his budget. I've been kicking around the idea of getting him a gun for Christmas, maybe taking some classes with him and setting him up to get his CFP.

I'd been thinking about an LCP. It's small, so it would be easy for him to get his small hands around and conceal. It's chambered in .380 so it wouldn't kick too much, making practice time at the range a little more enjoyable. Importantly for me at the moment, it's inexpensive. Sportsmans Warehouse has got them for $200 until Christmas. At that price I could probably get a case of ammunition to go with it.

But I wanted to see what else is available so I took a look at one of my LGS's catalogs, and stumbled on the EAA Witness Pavona. This caught my eye because my friend is not normally very flamboyant, but can't seem to resist sparkly purple things. There's two different colors of sparkly purple framed Pavona's. Besides being a practical gift, this could also be a fun gift to suit his personality. I'm seeing prices at less than $350, so it's not too expensive, but it also looks like these are not small guns. Four and a half inches high, more than seven inches long, and nearly an inch and a half wide means these would probably not be easy to conceal, especially for a small person. I'm not familiar with build quality on EAA, so I'd like to know what people here think.

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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He's comfortable with shooting guns which is a plus. If he's walking to work or takes the bus, does his employer allow him to carry or does he have a place to stow it? What size does he feel he can comfortably conceal, winter and summer? Small guns especially polymer framed ones with larger calibers are snappy. There are a lot of models in the 14-25 oz weight in revolvers and pistols. For someone small a 32 ACP in an inside the waistband holster might be best. I'd honestly take him to Sportsmans Warehouse and let him try some pistols.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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I have EAA Witness steel framed pistols and they're generally good quality guns. I have shot the Pavona and I liked it because it similar controls to the Witness, however it is on the large side for a CC pistol. Taurus (G2 and 709) and SCCY have carry pistols that are within the $200-$250 price range. I haven't shot Taurus but I've shot the SCCY which I think is OK for a self defense pistol but not much fun to shoot.

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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While .380 shoots softer than 9mm, it's actually harder to shoot well out of a typical pocket pistol. The .380 bullets are more expensive than 9mm as well.

For under $200 you can get a Taurus 709 or a SCCY. The SCCY is thicker because it's a 10+1 round double stack 9mm, but it comes in snazzy colors. The trigger is double-action only, so it's a bit heavy but manageable. It's still not as large as that EAA or Taurus 111.

Edit: apparently I'm repeating Spara. Great minds think alike and all that...
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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Has the RM380 been out long enough for people to complain about wear? Are they talking about carry wear on the finish?

The RM380 is Remington’s version of the Rohrbaugg design, which they bought. From what I have read, it seems Remington’s few changes to the design are all actual improvements. Haven’t handled the Rem, but have shot the Rogrbaugh And was quite impressed.

I’d consider it if I were looking for something in that category, and I am, frankly, a big snob about this kind of shit.
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Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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Marlene wrote:Has the RM380 been out long enough for people to complain about wear? Are they talking about carry wear on the finish?

The RM380 is Remington’s version of the Rohrbaugg design, which they bought. From what I have read, it seems Remington’s few changes to the design are all actual improvements. Haven’t handled the Rem, but have shot the Rogrbaugh And was quite impressed.

I’d consider it if I were looking for something in that category, and I am, frankly, a big snob about this kind of shit.
Function wear, springs, barrels, rails. I've heard nothing of the RM380 its self, but just other Remington compact and subcompact semi autos. I don't know how much of it is true.

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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Well the RM380 and maybe the R51 are the only small Remington pistols. The R51 had teething problems a-plenty when introduced, so the bad rap probably comes from that (although those problems were not wear related).

I'm not finding corroboration of the wear issue on the RM380 in a quick google search (nothing to that effect at all), but I did find an unedited 500 round video test of the gun. I didn't watch the whole thing, but the segments I watched were all positive. I wouldn't worry about it. After the R51 catastrophe, I'd guess Remington is working very hard to have their ducks in a row on quality.

This one looked pretty good too



https://youtu.be/KdSv59xsXJo
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Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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spara wrote:I have EAA Witness steel framed pistols and they're generally good quality guns. I have shot the Pavona and I liked it because it similar controls to the Witness, however it is on the large side for a CC pistol. Taurus (G2 and 709) and SCCY have carry pistols that are within the $200-$250 price range. I haven't shot Taurus but I've shot the SCCY which I think is OK for a self defense pistol but not much fun to shoot.
So another LGS has 738s for $180, I'm liking that. But, Sportsmans warehouse has G2s for 200, and 9mm is cheaper. The problem is Sportsmans Warehouse near me sells tons of guns and is out of G2s. I'd have to drive 50 miles to the next closest one, which would eliminate the savings.

Hmmm...

Edit: They were not 709s on sale, they were 738s.
Last edited by Bang on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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Inquisitor wrote:I’d probably do a Ruger or a S&W, for not much more, the Shield can be had.


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You may have the right idea. Any of the .380s I'm looking at would be $400 for a gun and 500 rounds, I can get a Shield at Cabela's for $350 and get a $75 gift card to put towards 500 rounds. I don't know how well the grip would work for little hands though, that was part of the reason I was looking at pocket .380s in the first place. More to think about...

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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Bang wrote:I was also looking at the Remington RM380, but I've heard of the small Remingtons wearing out rather quickly, if anyone has experience to share there that would be helpful too.
My RM380 is close to 800 rounds in, and the only obvious wear is to the finish from carry. Great shooting little gun, and they can be had fairly cheap. All metal also, if that matters to you.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."
John A. Shedd

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Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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So I asked if he'd accept a gun for Christmas and he said he would. I think I'm going to go with the Taurus G2. Nobody that has them on sale has any in stock, but a Local can get a stainless slide gray frame model for $5 more than the sale price most are advertising (what do you know nigel...) I'm thinking I'll head to Cabela's this evening and get a case of ammo and then go put money down on the pistol.

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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I have nothing against the Taurus G2. Any 12+1 carry-sized pistol that is as reliable for that amount of clams deserves serious consideration. And I did compare it with the Shield, before dropping the extra money for the S&W which carries less rounds. Why? The Taurus G2 trigger is not so nice. I'm sure it's fine as any SD gun but it makes it harder to have fun hitting stuff at the range. The Smith just had a fine, crisp trigger if not really light (which is ideal in a SD gun w/o an external safety switch).

All this to say it would be worth testing out the long pull and reset for a decidedly mediocre breaking trigger on the G2 and compare it with the Pavona trigger. Yes they are different as striker fire vs hammer driven but I'm sure you will feel the difference between the two and decide from there.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree a 9mm is better than a .380 for your friend who shows an interest in shooting as a sport more than just self defense. The Pavona will likely be a "funner" range toy but not necessarily the first and only gun he may end up owning.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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Alright, serious issue I hadn't anticipated. Hand strength is a major problem at this point. He could barely rack the slide, had a hard time with the slide release, and even a hard time with the mag release. The takedown was a little more complicated than I expected and he couldn't do it at all. If the point is self defense then there needs to be confidence in the tool, which may not develop if it can't be operated.

Thoughts on hand strength exercises? I'm thinking a grip trainer might be in order, but this is a hurdle that may defeat the purpose of the gift.

Just to be clear, I'm not one of those narcissistic gift givers that thinks any gift I buy must be used or I get offended. If it sits in a drawer and never gets used I'm alright with that, if he sells it I'm alright with that. But I got him a gun out of a concern for his safety, so IF it's going to be used I do need to have a strategy for making it possible. What was that line in Tinker's recent blog post, you now have a very complicated rock?

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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Bang wrote:Alright, serious issue I hadn't anticipated. Hand strength is a major problem at this point. He could barely rack the slide, had a hard time with the slide release, and even a hard time with the mag release. The takedown was a little more complicated than I expected and he couldn't do it at all. If the point is self defense then there needs to be confidence in the tool, which may not develop if it can't be operated.

Thoughts on hand strength exercises? I'm thinking a grip trainer might be in order, but this is a hurdle that may defeat the purpose of the gift.

Just to be clear, I'm not one of those narcissistic gift givers that thinks any gift I buy must be used or I get offended. If it sits in a drawer and never gets used I'm alright with that, if he sells it I'm alright with that. But I got him a gun out of a concern for his safety, so IF it's going to be used I do need to have a strategy for making it possible. What was that line in Tinker's recent blog post, you now have a very complicated rock?
Just a suggestion, he should take the concealed carry class first using one of your handguns. If he's still interested after the class, go gun shopping. If he's not - pepper spray and tasers are other options.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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Bang wrote:Alright, serious issue I hadn't anticipated. Hand strength is a major problem at this point. He could barely rack the slide, had a hard time with the slide release, and even a hard time with the mag release. The takedown was a little more complicated than I expected and he couldn't do it at all. If the point is self defense then there needs to be confidence in the tool, which may not develop if it can't be operated.

Thoughts on hand strength exercises? I'm thinking a grip trainer might be in order, but this is a hurdle that may defeat the purpose of the gift.

Just to be clear, I'm not one of those narcissistic gift givers that thinks any gift I buy must be used or I get offended. If it sits in a drawer and never gets used I'm alright with that, if he sells it I'm alright with that. But I got him a gun out of a concern for his safety, so IF it's going to be used I do need to have a strategy for making it possible. What was that line in Tinker's recent blog post, you now have a very complicated rock?
Take a look at these techniques to rack the slide:


I say do this one step at a time. First time users tend to handle the gun gingerly, for fear of accidentally breaking or (worse) shooting it. Tell him that his chance of breaking this thing is next to nil, and as long as the trigger is not touched it's not gonna fire regardless of what he does to it. Get him to the range and shoot the heck out of the pistol. Once he gets the feel of what makes the gun fire and what doesn't, he'll be more confident about it.

Then you can start worrying about disassembly and cleaning. Even a Taurus is probably good for a couple of thousand rounds before cleaning.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Thoughts on EAA Witness Pavona as a gift?

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highdesert wrote:
Bang wrote:Alright, serious issue I hadn't anticipated. Hand strength is a major problem at this point. He could barely rack the slide, had a hard time with the slide release, and even a hard time with the mag release. The takedown was a little more complicated than I expected and he couldn't do it at all. If the point is self defense then there needs to be confidence in the tool, which may not develop if it can't be operated.

Thoughts on hand strength exercises? I'm thinking a grip trainer might be in order, but this is a hurdle that may defeat the purpose of the gift.

Just to be clear, I'm not one of those narcissistic gift givers that thinks any gift I buy must be used or I get offended. If it sits in a drawer and never gets used I'm alright with that, if he sells it I'm alright with that. But I got him a gun out of a concern for his safety, so IF it's going to be used I do need to have a strategy for making it possible. What was that line in Tinker's recent blog post, you now have a very complicated rock?
Just a suggestion, he should take the concealed carry class first using one of your handguns. If he's still interested after the class, go gun shopping. If he's not - pepper spray and tasers are other options.
Concealed carry classes in Utah do not involve handling guns. In fact, no guns that did not belong to the instructor and no ammunition at all were allowed in the classroom when I got mine.

I'm going to try and get him to come out shooting with me a bit more and try to develop some hand strength just by practicing. I'll also suggest we try out different guns to see if he's able to manipulate larger or smaller guns. A revolver might be what's needed, but we'll have to figure out what will work if he remains interested.

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