Beginner's AR

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shinzen
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Re: Beginner's AR

#51 Post by shinzen » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:28 am

Marlene wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:53 pm
could probab;y do a lower on the sherline mill, if you take light enough cuts. I've done stupider things on one.
Considering that the currently preferred way for home hobbyists to do lowers is with a small one handed router, I think the mill would do just fine.
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Re: Beginner's AR

#52 Post by AndyH » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:29 pm

koolaidblue wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:57 am
YankeeTarheel wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:48 pm
harriss wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:39 am
Buck13 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:36 am
What about 80% lowers? With the passage of the stupid initiative in WA, I'm rapidly going from "I don't care for ARs" to "Screw you, I want an extra-scary 'ghost gun.'"

I have a decent router and access to a half-way decent drill press. For someone with very little metal-working experience and mediocre woodworking skills, how likely is it that I can successfully complete the lower?
I made 2. Both work flawlessly. The jig is the most important thing and not all jigs are created equal. Just make sure your jig is compatible with your lower. Also a dremel tool helps for finishing so you don't have to spends a week with a hand file finishing it.
Pardon my ignorance, but why would you buy an 80% and a jig when you could buy the finished lower? And can you use a small milling machine or a metal lathe if you don't trust your drill press's accuracy? I have a small Sherline vertical mill.
There is a paper trail that can be traced to you when you buy a completed stripped lower.
There's a paper trail that can be traced back to you when you buy an 80% lower as well. I'd bet searching credit card transactions goes a lot faster than manually searching through FFL logs as well.
“There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.” Heinlein
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Re: Beginner's AR

#53 Post by Bisbee » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:25 pm

Paper trail for a curvy hunk of metal cannot be used to prove anything in a court of law, only specious arguments at best. A stripped lower with a serial # is a completely different story.
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Re: Beginner's AR

#54 Post by AndyH » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:36 pm

Bisbee wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:25 pm
Paper trail for a curvy hunk of metal cannot be used to prove anything in a court of law, only specious arguments at best. A stripped lower with a serial # is a completely different story.
It's enough for the BATFE to make someone's life a living hell if they can show 'constructive intent'. That's why I didn't drill anything for my suppressor project until I had the tax stamp in my hands.

If a murderer uses a rifle to commit a crime, and their fingerprints are on the lower, and there's a paper trail that shows they bought the lower and milling equipment, I'll bet the prosecution will use it to lock-down a case. Serial numbers get investigators to the person that bought it initially, but since private sales and gifts aren't tracked, seems like there are plenty of holes regardless.
“There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.” Heinlein
You can’t take the Razorback! She is gone and gone and gone!

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Re: Beginner's AR

#55 Post by YankeeTarheel » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:19 pm

Back to the topic: Beginner's AR
So...I'm poking around, looking at complete lowers for an AR-10 at AeroPrecision and I'm seeing a bunch that saying M5(.308) and others that say just M5, and no mention of .308 and I've hunted for the difference online and not finding it.
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
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Re: Beginner's AR

#56 Post by AndyH » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:33 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:19 pm
Back to the topic: Beginner's AR
So...I'm poking around, looking at complete lowers for an AR-10 at AeroPrecision and I'm seeing a bunch that saying M5(.308) and others that say just M5, and no mention of .308 and I've hunted for the difference online and not finding it.
I expect the M5 thing is AeroPrecision-ese, the way PA-10 is Palmetto State Armory's. Some things I've learned... There are no standards or mil specs for AR-10 rifles. In general there's an Armalite and a DPMS 'pattern'**, and in uppers there's a DPMS high rail and a DPMS low. DPMS pattern rifles use standard AR-15 length gas tubes while Armalite pattern AR-10 gas tubes are 5/16" longer.* Uppers and lowers from different companies are not guaranteed to mix/match the way one can put anyone's AR-15 upper on someone else's AR-15 lower.

*I assembled my -10 from parts, starting with Palmetto State Armory's stripped upper and lower. PSA's rifles are DPMS pattern and use AR-15 gas tubes...but I used an Anderson barrel and needed to get an Armalite gas tube. There was too much gas leakage around the shorter tube and the rifle would short-stroke with some ammo. That's the only thing that was a surprise in my build - everything else was a straight 'knowledge transfer' from AR-15 assembly.

** The article from Primary Arms says there are three patterns: Armalite, DPMS, and SR-25

Cool blog articles from Primary Arms:
Ar-10 and AR-10 parts interchangeability
https://www.primaryarms.com/blog/are-ar ... changeable
Precision AR build in 6.5 Creedmore
https://www.primaryarms.com/blog/builde ... er-artemis
“There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.” Heinlein
You can’t take the Razorback! She is gone and gone and gone!

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Re: Beginner's AR

#57 Post by YankeeTarheel » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:27 pm

Thanks, Andy! I'm aware that the two main patterns are Armalite and DPMS, with varieties among them...and that SR-25. There's also a Gen 1, and Gen 2 DPMS pattern, and maybe a Gen 3. So the M5 (.308)/M5 threw me.

Since I've never built an AR anything, or owned one, I'm thinking either a complete rifle or matching a complete lower and upper may be wisest. But I have only seen a few complete rifles that don't have a threaded muzzle, and that's illegal in NJ, as are flash suppressors (no idea why). But muzzle breaks are legal if welded on.

I'm going to read those blogs.
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
My son says: "Don't argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!" -- YT

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Re: Beginner's AR

#58 Post by AndyH » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:25 pm

Glad to help, YT.

I put my -10 on the scale last night. 20" heavy barrel, A2 fixed stock, bipod, scope, and suppressor...12 pounds even. Not a 'hiking through the woods for 3 days' sort of rifle. ;)
“There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.” Heinlein
You can’t take the Razorback! She is gone and gone and gone!

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Re: Beginner's AR

#59 Post by YankeeTarheel » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:49 pm

AndyH wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:25 pm
Glad to help, YT.

I put my -10 on the scale last night. 20" heavy barrel, A2 fixed stock, bipod, scope, and suppressor...12 pounds even. Not a 'hiking through the woods for 3 days' sort of rifle. ;)
Yikes! Windham claims its Hunter is about 8.5 lbs, but I don't know if that include a full load of 5 rounds, and certainly doesn't include a scope or sights.
DPMS claims its GII Hunter with a 20" barrel is 7.76 lbs, again, without sights or scope, whether it includes the mag and 5 rounds. Their compact hunter with a 16" barrel they claim as low as 7#
But the compact probably needs the stock pinned and then should be NJ compliant. Neither has a threaded barrel. Their 24" bull should also be compliant but nominally weighs 10-11#.
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
My son says: "Don't argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!" -- YT

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Re: Beginner's AR

#60 Post by JaxTeller » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:50 pm

If you haven't made a purchase, just saw that Palmetto State has an AR for 339. Have to add the upper and the lower separately, and the upper may be a blem. .

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Re: Beginner's AR

#61 Post by AndyH » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:04 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:49 pm
AndyH wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:25 pm
Glad to help, YT.

I put my -10 on the scale last night. 20" heavy barrel, A2 fixed stock, bipod, scope, and suppressor...12 pounds even. Not a 'hiking through the woods for 3 days' sort of rifle. ;)
Yikes! Windham claims its Hunter is about 8.5 lbs, but I don't know if that include a full load of 5 rounds, and certainly doesn't include a scope or sights.
DPMS claims its GII Hunter with a 20" barrel is 7.76 lbs, again, without sights or scope, whether it includes the mag and 5 rounds. Their compact hunter with a 16" barrel they claim as low as 7#
But the compact probably needs the stock pinned and then should be NJ compliant. Neither has a threaded barrel. Their 24" bull should also be compliant but nominally weighs 10-11#.
YT - here's a cool "all things AR-10" sort of place: https://308ar.com/ar-10-308-ar-compatib ... nce-guide/
“There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.” Heinlein
You can’t take the Razorback! She is gone and gone and gone!

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Re: Beginner's AR

#62 Post by YankeeTarheel » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:01 pm

AndyH wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:04 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:49 pm
AndyH wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:25 pm
Glad to help, YT.

I put my -10 on the scale last night. 20" heavy barrel, A2 fixed stock, bipod, scope, and suppressor...12 pounds even. Not a 'hiking through the woods for 3 days' sort of rifle. ;)
Yikes! Windham claims its Hunter is about 8.5 lbs, but I don't know if that include a full load of 5 rounds, and certainly doesn't include a scope or sights.
DPMS claims its GII Hunter with a 20" barrel is 7.76 lbs, again, without sights or scope, whether it includes the mag and 5 rounds. Their compact hunter with a 16" barrel they claim as low as 7#
But the compact probably needs the stock pinned and then should be NJ compliant. Neither has a threaded barrel. Their 24" bull should also be compliant but nominally weighs 10-11#.
YT - here's a cool "all things AR-10" sort of place: https://308ar.com/ar-10-308-ar-compatib ... nce-guide/
Thanks! Good luck with that. I'm planning on sticking to the DPMS format.

Not really going anywhere just yet...I like to spend lots of time getting info till I'm comfortable.
(Back in the '70's I built a GREAT stereo for all of $300, by shopping for great used stuff, and got a Dual turntable, a Dynaco integrated amp, Audio-Technica cartridge and Advent/1 speakers. Simple, but great sound. Still have it all, though I did have to do new surrounds on the woofers. Don't use it anymore, but still have it all)
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
My son says: "Don't argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!" -- YT

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Re: Beginner's AR

#63 Post by K9s » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:09 am

JaxTeller wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:50 pm
If you haven't made a purchase, just saw that Palmetto State has an AR for 339. Have to add the upper and the lower separately, and the upper may be a blem. .

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
They regularly offer a complete upper (with CH & BCG) and complete lower separately priced for under $350 total in different colors at a time. I picked up one upper & lower set in grey MOE for about $400. These are basically the Freedom Rifle that used to drop down to $499 after the 2016 election. It is well worth the price if you want to try out the AR platform or just want an inexpensive shooter for steel ammo. Some people use them for truck guns. Buy 'em while you can. In two years, the panic pricing may be back.
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Re: Beginner's AR

#64 Post by AndyH » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:19 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:01 pm
AndyH wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:04 pm
YT - here's a cool "all things AR-10" sort of place: https://308ar.com/ar-10-308-ar-compatib ... nce-guide/
Thanks! Good luck with that. I'm planning on sticking to the DPMS format.
That was my plan as well. ;) When I gathered parts for my build, I wasn't aware of the Armalite AR-10 specs. Everything is DPMS except for the Anderson barrel. It has a DPMS barrel extension, but the Armalite AR-10-length to the gas port. the gun runs with an AR-15/DPMS rifle length gas tube but needed an adjustable gas block to be 100% reliable. Because the tube's about 3/8" too short, though, the blast of gas pushing the BCG back increases the felt recoil. I have a correct length tube on the way.
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Re: Beginner's AR

#65 Post by YankeeTarheel » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:17 pm

K9s wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:09 am
JaxTeller wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:50 pm
If you haven't made a purchase, just saw that Palmetto State has an AR for 339. Have to add the upper and the lower separately, and the upper may be a blem. .

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
They regularly offer a complete upper (with CH & BCG) and complete lower separately priced for under $350 total in different colors at a time. I picked up one upper & lower set in grey MOE for about $400. These are basically the Freedom Rifle that used to drop down to $499 after the 2016 election. It is well worth the price if you want to try out the AR platform or just want an inexpensive shooter for steel ammo. Some people use them for truck guns. Buy 'em while you can. In two years, the panic pricing may be back.
Gotta be careful. In NJ, the lower receiver, at least, must go to an FFL, where, at best, it costs $50 for the transfer and NICS. If there is an A2 type flash suppressor, it has to be removed and either a compliant muzzle brake or a thread cap must be welded on. If the stock is adjustable, it must be pinned, and any magazines larger than 10 rounds must be pinned or removed, by the FFL and they charge for all of these things. Some, like the DPMS Hunter, with a fixed stock and no threads on the barrel muzzle, are compliant if the magazine is compliant.
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
My son says: "Don't argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!" -- YT

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