was going to ask in pm, but then

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was going to ask in pm, but then

#1 Post by lurker » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:21 pm

i thought maybe someone else might think this interesting or informative.

i've never had this much trouble with a rifle, and it's becoming a real confidence-buster.

i've owned my polytech m14 now for a couple of months, and i'm having issues getting it on target. it hits to the right of poa. the front sight is noticeably to the right on the flash hider, and to get the rifle to hit where i'm aiming at 50 yds, i have to set the rear sight windage 3 marks left of center.

i've replaced the rear sight assembly, op rod spring, op rod spring guide, and shimmed the gas cylinder, all of which has helped consistency, but not made poi=poa. so i'm thinking the barrel is out of index, which i believe calls for professional gunsmithing skills and tools, and then maybe headspacing, all well beyond my skillset.

or i could just drift the front sight over even further to the right,

or...

i could scope it and ignore the iron sights altogether. but that doesn't actually fix the problem

am i missing something here?
Last edited by lurker on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#2 Post by Eris » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:50 pm

I don't have a solution, but since it hits the right, if you can't fix it maybe you could sell it as a rifle for conservatives. ;)
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#3 Post by lurker » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:02 pm

Eris wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:50 pm
I don't have a solution, but since it hits the right, if you can't fix it maybe you could sell it as a rifle for conservatives. ;)
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#4 Post by Marlene » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:05 pm

Sights are adjustable for a reason. Seems that it’s a fair bit of adjustment to get poi=poa but if it works it works. I’d leave it and shoot it.

That said, if I was looking for things that could influence poi v poa, I’d look at the crown and alignment of the muzzle brake. After that I’d look at the solidity/tightness/evenness of the metal to stock fit.

Things related to chamber clearances/headspace would sooner make groups big than make them land far right.

The improvement in consistency from the other changes you’ve made sounds promising. If the range of available adjustment makes it land right, you’re fine if you like. If you’d rather chase after it, knowing it could get weird or expensive or both, then I’m happy to advise. The first couple places to look are pretty straightforward and reasonable. Beyond that we can be in to questions of fundamental construction like barrel straightness and concentricity and other fun subjects and elaborate fixes. Fortunately it’s easy to take the train a couple of stops and get off when one has seen as much country as suits one’s taste.

I personally find the idea of a rifle naturally inclined to hit right to be charming and convenient.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#5 Post by lurker » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:23 pm

ok.
the people on the m14 forum who should know say this condition (as i currently understand it) is not unusual and to drift the front sight further right to get it on target. since this is something i can do myself and for free, i guess i'll try it. i believe they make a tool for this, should i order it?
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#6 Post by bajajoaquin » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:36 pm

I’m resisting advocating the impulse purchase of guns, but I still advocate
The impulse purchase of tools.

You should absolutely buy that.

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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#7 Post by lurker » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:48 pm

bajajoaquin wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:36 pm
You should absolutely buy that.
that's very helpful, thanks. when i worked on cars regularly, a new tool was always a good investment. now i have a shop full of tools, most of which i've used... once. now i have no idea what some of them are for.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#8 Post by bajajoaquin » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:58 pm

LOL then you’re an old pro!

In all seriousness, I just don’t know these rifles. Is it something a generic brass punch can do fine? Or is it like a bottom bracket on a bicycle, where you can use a screwdriver as a drift, but the proper tool will prevent you from buying a second bottom bracket and the tool anyway.

If it’s a punch, don’t buy it. If it’s a bottom bracket wrench, buy it.

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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#9 Post by lurker » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:07 am

i expect a punch would work.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#10 Post by Marlene » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:42 am

A punch is what I’d certainly try first.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#11 Post by YankeeTarheel » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:33 am

lurker wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:07 am
i expect a punch would work.
I've been punched. Trust me, it doesn't fix anything. :see_stars:
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#12 Post by YankeeTarheel » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:38 am

lurker wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:48 pm
bajajoaquin wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:36 pm
You should absolutely buy that.
that's very helpful, thanks. when i worked on cars regularly, a new tool was always a good investment. now i have a shop full of tools, most of which i've used... once. now i have no idea what some of them are for.
Are you as bad as me? It's not just one set of tools...it's multiples, usually "strategically located" around the house. I THINK I know what most of them are for, but there are a few specialized tools for items (Like a valve opener for a 1981 Yamaha 650 Maxim--valves were adjusted by coin-like shims--got some of those, too) I haven't owned in years...Said Maxim was traded in on a 1991 Venture Royale in...1991. Venture Royale sold in 2004... I MIGHT have some tools for it...somewhere....just in case....
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#13 Post by lurker » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:30 am

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:33 am
lurker wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:07 am
i expect a punch would work.
I've been punched. Trust me, it doesn't fix anything. :see_stars:
maybe you weren't doing it right. step closer and we'll try again. :see_stars: just funnin :beer2:
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#14 Post by lurker » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

i need to quit thinking about this and just do it.
the more i think on it, the more wrong it seems. a post in my thread on m14 just put it over the top. i understand, it's not a high tone hunting or target rifle, it's a battle rifle, meant to be dragged through the mud by soldiers and still shoot minute-of-man. but coming from a background in software, it has the distinct aroma of a "patch" (field expedient, kludge). rather than actually fix the problem, we write a bit of code to cover up the ugly symptom, often with the full intention of coming back later to correct the code, which doesn't usually actually happen. eventually you end up with a program full of . i understand. what i think is the actual solution would cost money, and i am, after all, frugal(cheap). i may revisit this.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#15 Post by K9s » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:29 pm

You've ruled out ammo as a problem, right? I've seen ammo that consistently shoots low right versus other ammo.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#16 Post by lurker » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:07 pm

K9s wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:29 pm
You've ruled out ammo as a problem, right? I've seen ammo that consistently shoots low right versus other ammo.
good point.
no, i have not. i have 20 rds of aguila, 20 of S&B, 20 of PPU to test that theory, but i've never actually shot anything but magtech m80 nato ball.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#17 Post by lurker » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:29 pm

today i got to the range with poly, the chinese m14. first, i set up targets at 25 yards, and shot 5 rounds each of magtech, ppu, aguila and S&B to eliminate a particular manufacturer as the problem. and i did, also noticed magtech gives the largest groups, all of them hitting low and right. the elevation adjustment went smoothly, so i got out the hex keys and hardwood dowel and used my vise-grips as a mallet to drift the front sight further over to the right, which helped. after a couple of "just a little more", i gave in and adjusted the rear sight left a notch or so and we're now all around the bull's eye. groups still bigger than i like but that might be me or cheap ammo. maybe glass would help? i'm not happy with the front sight drifted over so far, or the rear off center at all, and glass would make iron sights irrelevant. tomorrow i'll post pics.

meanwhile, a couple of asides: there were way more other shooters than i'm accustomed to, so lots of waiting for the range to go cold. mostly AR variants, in 5.56, .308 and 300blk. with muzzle brakes. i hate being down the line from muzzle brakes, and i barely suppressed a guffaw at the shooter's comments about making recoil manageable. guess he's never shot a bolt gun in 30-06? tacti-wimps.

also recovered 3 unfired light primer strike 300blk cartridges. these little things are the "latest and greatest"? wtf, 7.62x39 or 30-40 krag , even 30-30 looks like more power in .30 cal.
Last edited by lurker on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#18 Post by K9s » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:00 pm

300BLK: The coolest cartridge you'll never need.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#19 Post by Marlene » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:54 am

30-30 is more power. 300blk is designed to throw 200 grain match kings subsonic through a suppressor.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#20 Post by lurker » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:38 am

it's a lovely morning. light is good, got some pics.
l-r, 30 mauser, 300blk, .223, 30-40 krag, 30-06
on the plus side, i see the 300 bullet has four grooves down the length of the hollowpoint bullet, which, if it opened up, would make a HUGE wound channel. perfect for um, never mind.
and yes, one of the rifles there yesterday, in and among the annoyingly too-loud muzzle-brakes, had a suppressor
LUGO1662.JPG
Last edited by lurker on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#21 Post by lurker » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:47 am

on to the main feature, the polytech sights. this setting gives me a not-too-awfullly-bad 3"group loosely centered around the bull. i begin to suspect the previous owner couldn't get decent accuracy out of it and ditched it.
LUGO1665.JPG
LUGO1663.JPG
i'm open to suggestions, thanks for watching.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#22 Post by shinzen » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:37 am

I'd still do the first two easy things Marlene mentioned up thread- crown and muzzle brake. The large brass screw, drill, and valve lapping compound does work on the former. Probably be the first thing I'd check.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#23 Post by lurker » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:58 pm

shinzen wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:37 am
I'd still do the first two easy things Marlene mentioned up thread- crown and muzzle brake. The large brass screw, drill, and valve lapping compound does work on the former. Probably be the first thing I'd check.
so, looked up a couple of videos on "barrel crown". didn't see a "brass screw" reference.

looks like something i could do if i had the tools, which i do not at present. no brake, i'll pull off the flash hider and look at it, see if i can see any dings in the crown.

got the FFH (Faux Flash Hider) off, no visible signs of damage to my poor untrained eye, will try for pics tomorrow.

aside: the Faux Flash Hider lacks a bayo lug, i've considered replacing it with an actual flash hider with lug. any benefit to going with an actual hider?
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#24 Post by Marlene » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:44 pm

No benefit.
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Re: was going to ask marlene in pm, but then

#25 Post by shinzen » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:35 pm

May also want to shoot it without the faux hider to see if it changes anything.

Here's a vid on the crowning. It's super easy. Jump to 1:26 to see the how.

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