looking into .308 and larger rifles

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Marlene
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#26 Post by Marlene » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:11 am

If you’re going for another caliber in the AR, 6.5 Grendel is an excellent choice. 300 doesn’t have much to offer without a can.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#27 Post by offensivename » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:21 am

Marlene wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:11 am
If you’re going for another caliber in the AR, 6.5 Grendel is an excellent choice. 300 doesn’t have much to offer without a can.
QFT. A friend of mine has a .300BLK AR-15 and I don't really get the appeal other than his handwavy "you can hunt with it." He definitely espouses the fact that he can have subsonic ammo, but thats not much good without a suppressor, nor would it help when he goes to shoot it next to a bunch of people shooting other very not-suppressed rifles.

6.5 Grendel on the other hand does give you the ability to hunt, a much more accurate round than the standard 5.56, and cheap (although not the best) steel cased ammo. I don't know if it would give you the oompf you seem to be looking for though? Mine has less recoil than my 5.56 since I put a brake on it.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#28 Post by FlyGuy » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:09 am

I was tooling around "Upper" manufacturing sites and came across two rounds that I never thought about...The 50 Beowulf and the 458 SOCOM.
Wow! I watched a couple of videos and when I saw the big guy pushed backwards from the full auto Beowulf. I might do a little more research.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#29 Post by rascally » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:31 am

BillMcD wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:52 am
rascally wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:08 pm
Regarding your AR feeling "anemic", an AR doesn't have much felt recoil because of the straight back operating system. The bolt carrier, buffer and spring are all soaking up recoil force, and being straight back there's not much upward motion imparted compared to a traditional drop stock.

Also, .223 is not the only caliber available in an AR. I have an AR chambered in 6.8 SPC. The difference is the barrel, bolt and magazine. .223 it's not. Still not much recoil (it's an AR) but hits a lot harder than .223...you could just acquire ( or build) an upper in that caliber and give it a try.

Additionally, have you tried firing .223 or 5.56 in a bolt action? Completely different feeling.

Finally, don't be ashamed to use recoil pads. I use Limbsaver pads on my AR's and my 12 gauge double. My shoulder never hurts...
I've been considering getting a .300 AAC upper (unless I get comfortable replacing barrels and gas systems) but i would have to find a good price for it, and also be willing to reload my own brass. A lot of these special bullets run the tab up a lot. either way its more money (and time and storage space) going into the rifle that i don't know if i'm ready to spend yet. :think: I don't have a reloading setup and I'm not sure im confident pressing together cartridges, especially if i have to cut and shape the casings, not to mention primers. I have to do more research.
Do yourself a solid and try to borrow or rent a .300 AAC (or Blackout) before you spend your cash. Try shooting it at 100 or 200 yards. A lot of people have been very disappointed with that caliber and the artillery like trajectories needed at any distance.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#30 Post by SubRosa » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:38 am

Another not-discussed yet gun is an Enfield in .303.

At least for a bolt gun, and probably ownable just about anywhere.

They are available, shoot very tight groups (other than the 'jungle carbine'), and the 1955 Fazakerly No.4Mk2 is even sold in NOS condition every once in awhile.

I really love mine.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#31 Post by featureless » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:44 am

Wasn't the .300 designed for short barrel, short ranged, suppressed guns? If so, seems like an odd choice for reaching out.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#32 Post by BillMcD » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:22 pm

yeah, I'm of the mind that I might as well buy a 357 lever action over .300 blackout considering i already have that ammo. That or buy a pistol carbine/sub gun because thats basically what .300 is in terms of power.. I just don't know how punchy (humanely hunting capable) you can make a 5.56 bullet without some sort of conversion. I would still probably want to get a larger rifle at some point for that, but considering i don't actually hunt, that's not really relevant right now. :roll:

It seems though that the prices of 308 semi auto rifles (outside of the AR 308 which i still don't know if they are reliable at that price tag) just keep going up. I could get a cheap and good bolt action from academy if i really needed one, but im weird and bolt/manual action weapons feel more like novelties than a weapon of choice.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#33 Post by featureless » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:30 pm

For what it's worth, I built an LR308, took it out twice and then sold it. Feeding it was cost prohibiting and kind of ruined the fun factor. I now have a bolt 308 and it's more fun and focused. I am considering passing it on to build a straight pull (bolt action, essentially) 6.5 grendel on an AR platform, as Marlene suggested above. More umpf than a 223 and longer range.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#34 Post by CDFingers » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:17 am

BillMcD wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:52 am

I've been considering getting a .300 AAC upper (unless I get comfortable replacing barrels and gas systems) but i would have to find a good price for it, and also be willing to reload my own brass. A lot of these special bullets run the tab up a lot. either way its more money (and time and storage space) going into the rifle that i don't know if i'm ready to spend yet. :think: I don't have a reloading setup and I'm not sure im confident pressing together cartridges, especially if i have to cut and shape the casings, not to mention primers. I have to do more research.
Recoil pads are nice.

Lots of commercial ammo makers are putting out .300 Blackout ammo, the real accurate stuff is pretty pricey, but it's getting out there.

I think everyone needs at least one .30 cal long range rifle. Lots of .30 cal choices out there. I've built a few, and they're very satisfying. 7 x 57 is nice, too, but might be too small for you. A nice heavy .45-70 will do anything you need at reasonable distances, farther with great scope. I don't shoot heavier than 350 grains because reasons.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#35 Post by sikacz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:22 pm

Marlene wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:21 pm
I'll have to find a better class of range to scrounge brass from ;)

One thing to keep in mind about recoil is that full power calibers seem challenging when you aren't familiar with shooting that sort of gun. Don't get me wrong, while I'm notoriously insensitive to handgun recoil (my reputation exceeds the reality and might be bolstered in some quarters by sexist expectations), I am not a fan of heavy recoil in rifles. Most magnums? forget it! 45-70 leverguns make me very sad, because I'd like to be in to them. That said, I can shoot most 30-06 class rifles all day long with comfort because I know how to hold them rather than because I am tough.

I got beat up badly by my first Mosin, until someone kindly gave me some pointers that made it much less painful.

Folks who start shooting centerfire rifles with ARs and the like just haven't learned how to properly hold a rifle that recoils because they have never shot a rifle that recoils.
This.

"Folks who start shooting centerfire rifles with ARs and the like just haven't learned how to properly hold a rifle that recoils because they have never shot a rifle that recoils."

It's the best reason to start off with an old fashion bolt center fire rifle paired with a good bolt action .22LR rim fire rifle. It's all in how you hold it.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#36 Post by BillMcD » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:47 pm

sikacz wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:22 pm
Marlene wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:21 pm
I'll have to find a better class of range to scrounge brass from ;)

One thing to keep in mind about recoil is that full power calibers seem challenging when you aren't familiar with shooting that sort of gun. Don't get me wrong, while I'm notoriously insensitive to handgun recoil (my reputation exceeds the reality and might be bolstered in some quarters by sexist expectations), I am not a fan of heavy recoil in rifles. Most magnums? forget it! 45-70 leverguns make me very sad, because I'd like to be in to them. That said, I can shoot most 30-06 class rifles all day long with comfort because I know how to hold them rather than because I am tough.

I got beat up badly by my first Mosin, until someone kindly gave me some pointers that made it much less painful.

Folks who start shooting centerfire rifles with ARs and the like just haven't learned how to properly hold a rifle that recoils because they have never shot a rifle that recoils.
This.

"Folks who start shooting centerfire rifles with ARs and the like just haven't learned how to properly hold a rifle that recoils because they have never shot a rifle that recoils."

It's the best reason to start off with an old fashion bolt center fire rifle paired with a good bolt action .22LR rim fire rifle. It's all in how you hold it.
Tell that to my chest/shoulder when the first long gun i fired was a remington 870. :see_stars:

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#37 Post by Marlene » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:43 pm

BillMcD wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:47 pm
Tell that to my chest/shoulder when the first long gun i fired was a remington 870. :see_stars:
Dear Bill's chest/shoulder, I'm sorry nobody taught him to shoot without hurting you when he first started out. Shoulder sometimes might reasonably get the worst of it, but chest shouldn't even have been in the game.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#38 Post by BillMcD » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:54 pm

Marlene wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:43 pm
BillMcD wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:47 pm
Tell that to my chest/shoulder when the first long gun i fired was a remington 870. :see_stars:
Dear Bill's chest/shoulder, I'm sorry nobody taught him to shoot without hurting you when he first started out. Shoulder sometimes might reasonably get the worst of it, but chest shouldn't even have been in the game.
Heh, yeah, I tried to keep it in the pocket and it still beat my shoulder sore with a bruise that lasted a good few weeks. It doesn't help that i have short arms making a proper grip even harder. Regardless, I would probably need an adjustable stock, a better recoil pad, and maybe even a muzzle break (because remington markets one for defense) before i pick up another 12 gauge pump.

I practiced and qualified with a basic 870 while getting my guard license and that gave me recoil aversion on manual action rifles above a certain load. Basically I'm a wimp :oops:
Last edited by BillMcD on Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#39 Post by featureless » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:54 pm

Since we're talking technique, is it correct to pull the butt into your shoulder prior to breaking the trigger? I've found it helps but have no idea really... .223, it doesn't really matter. .308 and I need to remember to lean into it.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#40 Post by Marlene » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:05 pm

YES! pull it in to you firmly. Squish your cheek to it firmly too. If you are already in firm contact with the gun, you move with it. If you aren't, it has a running start to smack you.

Bill, I shot 100 rounds of 12 gauge before lunch last Friday and had no bruise. Technique is everything. I regularly shoot guns with steel buttplates in a t shirt; no bruises. I am in no way superhuman. I've been having some shoulder pain (no, the other one) and have been taking tons of NSAIDs (which make one bruise easily) and still not a mark on me.

I swear, guys, you were not born knowing how to do this on account of your manliness or something. Find someone to teach you.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#41 Post by featureless » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:16 pm

Marlene wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:05 pm
I swear, guys, you were not born knowing how to do this on account of your manliness or something. Find someone to teach you.
:lol: I would if I could. Closet gun owner, ya know?

I did get a day of training through the club on handguns and it was immensely helpful.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#42 Post by Marlene » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:20 pm

Come to Morro Bay in April and ask folks for some casual pointers. We are a friendly and helpful bunch.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#43 Post by lurker » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:44 pm

it's not that hard. as i said earlier,
lurker wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:28 pm
hold on firmly, seat buttstock firmly into shoulder and hold it there, let the recoil push, roll with it.
you're not trying to STOP the recoil, you're trying to soak it up. be like a sponge. you're not immovable, you're absorbent.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#44 Post by BillMcD » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:06 pm

lurker wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:44 pm
it's not that hard. as i said earlier,
lurker wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:28 pm
hold on firmly, seat buttstock firmly into shoulder and hold it there, let the recoil push, roll with it.
you're not trying to STOP the recoil, you're trying to soak it up. be like a sponge. you're not immovable, you're absorbent.
yeah, that was my mistake, I was rigid to try and keep my sights on target more than soak recoil. Gotta roll with the punches, even with rifles and shotguns. It was a stance for body armor, not for t-shirts. Still, after having shot various rifles including a PS90(not sure if rifle or pistol carbine) I'm starting to get a bullpup itch that is hard to scratch without spending a lot of money :roll: .

I actually managed to shoot a shotgun without hurting myself. It was without instruction other than basic "tuck in and stand so that you won't fall over". I rolled more with the recoil then. I lost sight picture but my shoulder was fine. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong with that but It might explain why i always hear follow up shots are difficult with bolt rifles. Or i could just be wrong again :see_stars:

Regardless, thanks for the help, and now for expository emotes! :thanks: :sorry: :newhere:

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#45 Post by Marlene » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:22 am

Followup shots with bolt rifles do take a lot more skill than with autos.

Most people break cheek weld between shots on a bolt gun, although I don't really understand why. You're not supposed to. Even so, when the Marines finally adopted the Garand to replace the 1903A3, they reasoned that the practical accuracy gained by shooters maintaining cheek weld was more than the loss of mechanical accuracy when comparing the two rifles outright. Good shooters maintained cheek weld with the 03, but a military that relies on everyone being a good shooter is in trouble.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#46 Post by Kayaker » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:59 am

I have a Ruger Model 77 ultra light in .308 that weighs a tad less than 5 lbs without the scope. I also have a Weatherby Mark V in 30-06. Both have similar recoil and neither one is bad. A friend and hunting partner has a Remington Mtn. Rifle, lightweight 30-06 and it's a miserable thing to shoot. Must be the geometry of the stock or something.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#47 Post by m1ckDELTA » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:06 am

I'm more than a bit surprised by how many folks haven't shot a traditional rifle.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#48 Post by lurker » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:43 am

m1ckDELTA wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:06 am
I'm more than a bit surprised by how many folks haven't shot a traditional rifle.
me too. :beer2: welcome to the age of the "assault" rifle. it has, after all, been 50 years (or more)
actually, my first gun was black powder, an 1861 springfield replica. 2nd gun was a garand, and 3rd was a 1911a1. AR? recoil? where? i don't see any recoil!
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#49 Post by BillMcD » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 pm

lurker wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:43 am
m1ckDELTA wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:06 am
I'm more than a bit surprised by how many folks haven't shot a traditional rifle.
me too. :beer2: welcome to the age of the "assault" rifle. it has, after all, been 50 years (or more)
actually, my first gun was black powder, an 1861 springfield replica. 2nd gun was a garand, and 3rd was a 1911a1. AR? recoil? where? i don't see any recoil!
Some of this is coming into firearms from a Law enforcement angle first. Only manual actions i have experience with are pump shotguns and revolvers. I was never able to pass a para-military fitness test so the closest i got was basically college events doing whatever was available, and I don't know of any LE bolt/lever rifle competitions (its mostly pistols).

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#50 Post by Marlene » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:33 pm

Well that makes sense. I’ve seen cops shoot, and adding any more skill requirements to the process definitely wouldn’t be good.
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