I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

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BillMcD
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I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#1 Post by BillMcD » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:57 am

And i realized i like bullpups way too much. I don't care that much about military triggers and such but the ergonomics just work best for me. I liked the PS90 I tried as well (aside from the ammo cost, definitely not worth for a small caliber with low power). Now if only bullpups weren't so expensive and rare. I'm definitely getting a tavor 7 when possible though. If IWI made it up to snuff, it should at least be reliable, and still probably more accurate than I am (relative term, My shoulder fire accuracy isn't great, man sized target at 100 yards with irons, but i need a better range if i'm going to try to push past 100m and make a scope worth it)

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#2 Post by lurker » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:10 am

or, you could get an sks and an aftermarket bullpup stock. whatever.
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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#3 Post by BillMcD » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:19 am

lurker wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:10 am
or, you could get an sks and an aftermarket bullpup stock. whatever.
If i could secure a supply of clean running 7.62x39 maybe. The russian surplus is just too much residue for me :sick: , even if the rifle is fine with it :rolleyes: . I don't think I could stand having my head any closer to the bolt of one of those.

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#4 Post by lurker » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:06 am

if you were closer, we'd be talkin, cause i have a (boat) load of '39, from who-knows-where. i once (2002?) wrote a blogish thing about the development of firearms technology from flint and muzzleloaders on up, and speculated that bullpups were the coming thing. which is apparently not happening, though whether out of some ergonomic or technical issue, or maybe out of habit or prejudice, i don't know. so bullpups interest me. for some reason the british l-85 types catch my eye. yes, i'm aware they have a bad reputation. i've handled a couple of aftermarket modded bullpups like the sks i mentioned which were not entirely satisfactory, but i suspect the intentionally designed bullpup might be a different experience. i'd certainly like to try one. i wish you luck in your quest.
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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#5 Post by DispositionMatrix » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:16 am

BillMcD wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:57 am
And i realized i like bullpups way too much. I don't care that much about military triggers and such but the ergonomics just work best for me. I liked the PS90 I tried as well (aside from the ammo cost, definitely not worth for a small caliber with low power). Now if only bullpups weren't so expensive and rare. I'm definitely getting a tavor 7 when possible though. If IWI made it up to snuff, it should at least be reliable, and still probably more accurate than I am (relative term, My shoulder fire accuracy isn't great, man sized target at 100 yards with irons, but i need a better range if i'm going to try to push past 100m and make a scope worth it)
Why the 7 over the X95?

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#6 Post by BillMcD » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:00 pm

lurker wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:06 am
if you were closer, we'd be talkin, cause i have a (boat) load of '39, from who-knows-where. i once (2002?) wrote a blogish thing about the development of firearms technology from flint and muzzleloaders on up, and speculated that bullpups were the coming thing. which is apparently not happening, though whether out of some ergonomic or technical issue, or maybe out of habit or prejudice, i don't know. so bullpups interest me. for some reason the british l-85 types catch my eye. yes, i'm aware they have a bad reputation. i've handled a couple of aftermarket modded bullpups like the sks i mentioned which were not entirely satisfactory, but i suspect the intentionally designed bullpup might be a different experience. i'd certainly like to try one. i wish you luck in your quest.
That's the problem with trying to reinvent the wheel when you already have one that's been upgraded so many times. Asking for a bullpup from what is basically a furniture change leads to a rather problematic rifle that basically costs more without much benefit. Designing a new one requires a NEED for something different. Something that is not a wheel, or at least a stubborn arms manufacturer who has backing to make something new and an adopter who will support its progress. Hence we have Steyr with the AUG, IWI with the Tavor, the type 95 in China, and previously the FAMAS in France. Its not that they haven't taken off, its just the US and USSR/Russia handed out M16s and AKs like candy. Countries buying their own rifles have made varying decisions on what to buy/make and it includes bullpups in some cases.

When it comes to civilian arms, there are a lot of existing functional models that use the same style actions that they have for in some cases over 100 years. There hasn't been a need for civilian bullpup arms and thus tradition holds. Also since the US has the largest civilian gun market, and the military uses the M16/M4, most people looking at military style rifles look at ones that copy the AR 15. Soviet surplus pushed the AK in other areas. Outside of that though, there hasn't been much market interest in reinventing or adopting a replacement for the wheel.
DispositionMatrix wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:16 am
BillMcD wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:57 am
And i realized i like bullpups way too much. I don't care that much about military triggers and such but the ergonomics just work best for me. I liked the PS90 I tried as well (aside from the ammo cost, definitely not worth for a small caliber with low power). Now if only bullpups weren't so expensive and rare. I'm definitely getting a tavor 7 when possible though. If IWI made it up to snuff, it should at least be reliable, and still probably more accurate than I am (relative term, My shoulder fire accuracy isn't great, man sized target at 100 yards with irons, but i need a better range if i'm going to try to push past 100m and make a scope worth it)
Why the 7 over the X95?
Too expensive to justify in place of my existing AR. That's the issue with bullpups. Existing rifles do the job and there isn't a NEED to replace them all so trying to make a newer better rifle that shoots 5.56 automatically loses out to an upgraded AR. With the 7.62 nato, I don't have a rifle in that caliber, and semi-autos in that niche are all over the place in terms of price, quality, modularity, and ergonomics.
Last edited by BillMcD on Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#7 Post by offensivename » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:32 pm

I've handled the x95 as well and I like it a lot. I've been contemplating one in 9mm to do PCC stuff for a while. The price just always stops me. For $1500 I could buy a CZ Scorpion and get a nice aftermarket trigger and probably more.

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#8 Post by BillMcD » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:12 pm

offensivename wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:32 pm
I've handled the x95 as well and I like it a lot. I've been contemplating one in 9mm to do PCC stuff for a while. The price just always stops me. For $1500 I could buy a CZ Scorpion and get a nice aftermarket trigger and probably more.
Well PCCs are a weird spot. They also have the option of grip feed magazines which reduces weapon length a bit without going to a new action. This is where I never quite understood PCCs and SMGs with forward magazines if you can just stick them in the pistol well. I guess they just really wanted a banana mag :think:

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#9 Post by offensivename » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:19 pm

BillMcD wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:12 pm
offensivename wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:32 pm
I've handled the x95 as well and I like it a lot. I've been contemplating one in 9mm to do PCC stuff for a while. The price just always stops me. For $1500 I could buy a CZ Scorpion and get a nice aftermarket trigger and probably more.
Well PCCs are a weird spot. They also have the option of grip feed magazines which reduces weapon length a bit without going to a new action. This is where I never quite understood PCCs and SMGs with forward magazines if you can just stick them in the pistol well. I guess they just really wanted a banana mag :think:
If only I didn't find carbines with mag in the grip ugly as sin!

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#10 Post by BillMcD » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:37 pm

offensivename wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:19 pm
BillMcD wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:12 pm
offensivename wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:32 pm
I've handled the x95 as well and I like it a lot. I've been contemplating one in 9mm to do PCC stuff for a while. The price just always stops me. For $1500 I could buy a CZ Scorpion and get a nice aftermarket trigger and probably more.
Well PCCs are a weird spot. They also have the option of grip feed magazines which reduces weapon length a bit without going to a new action. This is where I never quite understood PCCs and SMGs with forward magazines if you can just stick them in the pistol well. I guess they just really wanted a banana mag :think:
If only I didn't find carbines with mag in the grip ugly as sin!
fair point. What's on the market leaves a lot to be desired. Granted if you want a standard rifle stock, its impossible to have a grip magazine.

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#11 Post by senorgrand » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:42 pm

10/22 has at least one bullpup solution...about as cheap as you can get (other than the sks).

There are also the old Calico carbines, which are sort of bullpupish. Not cheap to buy, but cheap enough to feed.
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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#12 Post by justinf » Tue May 01, 2018 7:08 pm

Tavors are pretty great rifles. There are some great deals out there right now on SARs and I prefer it (albeit only slightly to the X95). I have some skepticism as to the 7 and the heavy caliber in the bullpup format...I would shoot one quite a bit before investing in one as my only 7.62 rifle. It's not a proven design as have been the others.

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#13 Post by BillMcD » Thu May 10, 2018 8:51 am

I may have jumped the gun (no pun intended) and pre-ordered a tavor 7 from quantico tactical. This wouldn't have even been possible, much less cost effective, without my private security license so thank you trash security job for that. I have a nice linear compensator lined up to go with it or any other 308/7.62 nato rifle i pick up. Blue label pricing is a miracle for modern firearms. If all else goes badly, I will still have a unique and hard to find rifle that should resell for more than half of what I paid for it as compared to a cheap parts AR.

I've fired enough unbraked 7.62 nato to know i can deal with the "recoil." (If this were a bolt or pump, I would need to get an enhanced recoil pad but this isn't one of those.) I don't expect it to be too much different from an M1A in that regard. I really wasn't impressed with the M1A in terms of ergonomics (or rental reliability but I clean my guns more than the range does). The weight is about the same, but the point of balance will be close to the chest making it easier on the forearm. At worst I will have muzzle rise and a heavy trigger pull, but both can be managed. After what happened with my last AR project I am really not wanting to build an AR 308 or shell out thousands on products I haven't handled first hand.

I do hope that there won't be many teething issues. The demo models seem to keep running fine and I don't need sub MOA for anything. I just hope I don't drop it in mud but that's what slings are for XD. (if any of you caught InRange's tavor mud test that was pretty terrible.)

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#14 Post by FrontSight » Thu May 10, 2018 4:26 pm

I'm not a big bullpup fan, but I'm not what I'd call a hater by any means. I see their benefit, and I see their disadvantages. For the IDF, I think a bullpup is pretty much ideal since they tend to do a LOT of CQB & urban fighting; for which, a bullpup is nearly ideal. As for in the field, it's not as if a bullpup is "bad" per-se, just not as good as a conventional rifle. The TAVOR has pretty good balance for a bullpup. One of the biggest issues is how carrying a bullpup wears out your stong side arm (whichever arm is holding the pistol grip). When you carry one in a ready position for an extended period of time, you have to always hold forward to keep it still, as the butt is always trying to fall; so that develops fatigue. The TAVOR still has this issue, but its not as much of an issue as older bullpup designs.

The TAVOR just plain sucks with a suppressor, it will give you a big puff of gas in the face every time you pull the trigger. Other than that, it's really a very good weapon. Maintenance is very low, it's sufficiently accurate, and significantly more reliable than the M16/M4 it replaced.

I think you'll enjoy your TAVOR.
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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#15 Post by BillMcD » Thu May 10, 2018 5:51 pm

FrontSight wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 4:26 pm
The TAVOR just plain sucks with a suppressor, it will give you a big puff of gas in the face every time you pull the trigger. Other than that, it's really a very good weapon. Maintenance is very low, it's sufficiently accurate, and significantly more reliable than the M16/M4 it replaced.

I think you'll enjoy your TAVOR.
Good thing this has adjustable gas. Not that I have a suppressor to use with it though. Maybe when we find unicorns and they pass the HPA or similar. :rolleyes:

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#16 Post by SVT40 » Wed May 30, 2018 12:00 am

3 letters: AUG

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Re: I got to lay hands on a Tavor yesterday... (the feeding of a bullpup obsession)

#17 Post by BillMcD » Wed May 30, 2018 7:25 am

SVT40 wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:00 am
3 letters: AUG

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I definitely owe it to myself to try it one day.

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