Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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Mama gets her PCC now that she has a new hip and is moving again. We have been researching this option as we have had some training working together (tactically) and we need something she can handle that has more capacity. She just can't handle even the lightweight ARs - she's a wiz with pistols.

So far we have managed to handle a Sig MPX-PCC and will arrange to shoot it in a few weeks. The other gun we have shooting access to is a Zenith MP5 Clone...rifle with long barrel.

But CZ makes a PCC, and so does Beretta and so does everyone else so I'm asking for advice from people who own such animals.

Thanks in Advance for you opinions and experience!

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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I have had the Beretta, KelTec Sub 2000, and the Ruger. The Beretta has great ergos. the ruger is the heaviest. Both the Ruger and Beretta can takedown easily. The Sub is a great SHTF gun that can be quickly deployed. Go with something that gets you mag compatibility with a pistol. And 9mm.

Good luck!

Oh, stock sights on the Ruger were the best and it has adjustable LOP
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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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M1 Carbine...

It is “effectively” a “Pistol Caliber Carbine.” And it has a long record of proven reliability.

They can be a bit more expensive than some of the others, especially things like the Kel-Tec Pistol-Caliber Carbines. But there are options for obtaining less expensive varieties from manufacturers like Kahr’s “Auto Ordnance” or the new “Inland” manufactured “clones” (the Inland Carbines also have a receiver and bolt that is interchangeable with the USGI make parts. The Kahr M1 Carbines do not, but are still quite well-made).

And in addition to the “off-brand” M1 Carbines (other than the “originals”), there are also places where you can find both the newer models, and original USGI production M1 Carbines, from Gunbroker, to Rock Island Auction Company (If I had but $300 more, I could have got a new manufacture Springfield Armory M1 Garand Tanker Model, with an original 1942 Manufacture Inland M1 Carbine — although both were in “Synthetic Stocks” — for what would have amounted to $800 each... Well BELOW what they would cost either on Gunbroker, or at a Gun Shop, where both would probably be in excess of $1,000 each). RIAC had two 1960s/70s production M1 Carbines go for $550 ($633 with “Buyer’s Premium”) and $700 ($805 with premium), as well as another WWII vintage National Postal Meter M1 Carbine for $1,000 Even ($1,150 with Premium).

But... There are many other such options, other than a “Vintage” Carbine... Kel-Tec SUB-2000, Beretta Cx4, Universal Self-loading Carbine, Ruger has half-a-dozen options, the High-Point 995, and then you have the even more historic Carbines than the M1 Carbine, such as the 19th Century Winchesters, Henrys, and Remingtons (1866, 1873, 1876, 1886, 1894, ...).

Personally... Depending upon what the criteria were:

High-Point for price.
Beretta or Universal for quality.
Ruger for price, quality, and durability.
Winchester or M1 Carbine for proven value and survivability, to say nothing of ease of repair (which the Rugers also get).

MB

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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MatthewB wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:04 pm M1 Carbine...

It is “effectively” a “Pistol Caliber Carbine.” And it has a long record of proven reliability.
I guess? The Ruger Blackhawk is the only pistol I know of chambered for .30 carbine, and that was to take advantage of cheap milsurp.

By that token, many leverguns are pistol caliber carbines, but I don't think that's what VooDoo had in mind. Might be worth its own thread.

Edit: I just found the Inland M1 Advisor, and I think I've gone crosseyed. The hey now??

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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For all intents and purposes, I have two. A CZ Scorpion and a High-Point/High-Tower Bullpup. They are both fun to shoot.
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I also have a Ruger 77/44. It is a 44mag bolt action carbine. Very suitable for hog and deer in dense brush and forest.
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I just realized that I don't have a picture of my RIA 22tcm carbine posted. All the same, you can probably guess that I like Pistol Caliber Carbines.
"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” Matt. 25:40

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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We had M1's for 20 years. I sold them as they were pathetic compared to an AR (for me) and too heavy for mama. We need a carbine under 7 pounds and able to take a Red Dot without massive mods. Money is not a problem as I have plenty of stuff to sell/trade for cash. She owns a Sig P238 that she adores and she's fond of Sigs as am I. I put the Sig MPX-PCC in her hands and asked about weight and balance and she thought is was pretty good. She gets that "Look" when things jell for her and the MPX had that look in her eye.

Right now the Sig offering is the one to beat. I just want to examine all the possibilities - the Sig mags are $50 so to get an extra 6 mags is $300. Ouch.

Gotta have a folding stock/polymer/lightweight and a rail up top for easy addition of fast optics. The last PCC in her hands had a red dot and she was mightily impressed and wanting. The CZ is interesting us. Basically we are looking at Street Brooms now....when/if we need to lay down massive fire fast to open a hole for escape. Sounds crude but...there is it. We have pistols and all that for personal defense but we are wanting something more tactical given the mood.

VooDoo
Last edited by VodoundaVinci on Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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Wow, Hasaf, that’s an impressively dressed up High Point! Does the trigger break clean or does it suffer from a vagueness that most bullpup conversions have (employing a plastic trigger/linkage arm to actuate the original trigger)?
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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geno wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:29 pm CX4 Beretta, is a good choice and if your lucky you'll find a lightly shot one and save a few dollars.
Wow! Great suggestion! I own a a plethora of Beretta's and my primary carries are a Beretta Px4 full size and a Px4 Subcompact. The CX4 uses all the same high cap mages I already carry EDC.

Thank You!

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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Bisbee wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:15 pm Wow, Hasaf, that’s an impressively dressed up High Point! Does the trigger break clean or does it suffer from a vagueness that most bullpup conversions have (employing a plastic trigger/linkage arm to actuate the original trigger)?
It's no improvement on the trigger, but then it isn't appreciably worse. The Bullpup trigger is adjustable for overtravel, that helps a lot. It all, it is still very shootable.

The kit is made by High Tower Armory.
"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” Matt. 25:40

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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just bought a SIG Cooperhead. It’s expensive, the milspec trigger isn’t horrid, but I replaced with a timney 2.5-3lb trigger(shot it with the new trigger for the first time today, loved it! Crisp, tight, quick reset) changed the pistol grip (stock isn’t terrible, let’s you rotate your grip from hip shooting to shouldered with ease) which makes me feel like I have more to hold on to, 30 rd magazines are expensive, put a Sig MSR Red dot on it and have it zeroed at 25yds. Had really nice 4” clusters today at 25yds and I’m pretty green behind the ears. I only have the 3.5” threaded barrel, cooperhead also has a 4.5” threaded barrel option. It has a quick disconnect hole built into the lower, a picc rail, deployable “brace” that’s surprisingly solid. I put a KAK micro flash can on it, doesn’t do a damn thing, but I like the look more that the standard milspec flash suppressor. Breaks down real easy, except the piston cap, that little thing isn’t the easiest to pop off/on, cleans up nice though.

The joy it brings was worth every penny, but I was also considering the CZ Scorpion. It’s completely mod-able. Would have cost me about the same amount to get it the way I wanted it. Looked like a real nice platform too. I’d recommend holding each and see which feels better, watching take down videos on YouTube and if possible, shooting them. I don’t think you can go wrong with either though.
CD5B850F-7E67-41CC-B7EB-69F3117650C0.jpeg
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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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What is the issue with ARs? Weight, or balance, or both? My 9mm AR pistol with brace only weighs about 1/2 lb more than my CX4. Both are under 6.5 lbs. Love the S2K, and it has a place in my car bag. But it isn’t a comfortable shooter, and not something I would recommend as a dedicated PCC unless concealment was really important. Definitely agree with a PCC choice that uses existing semi auto pistol mags. The CX4 takes 30 rd PX4 mags and the S2K takes 33rd Glock mags.

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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Hasaf wrote:
Bisbee wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:15 pm Wow, Hasaf, that’s an impressively dressed up High Point! Does the trigger break clean or does it suffer from a vagueness that most bullpup conversions have (employing a plastic trigger/linkage arm to actuate the original trigger)?
It's no improvement on the trigger, but then it isn't appreciably worse. The Bullpup trigger is adjustable for overtravel, that helps a lot. It all, it is still very shootable.

The kit is made by High Tower Armory.
I almost bought a Highpoint carbine in .45 for hogs. My thought was to put it in one of those hi-tower kits. Had one in 9mm but stupidly sold it...


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Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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Mag compatibility with a pistol you own is a big plus.

The S2K is super light and folds in half. People seem to either love it or hate it. I love it. I think of it as a "leatherman" style rifle. Super small, light, and foldy but not for jobs that require an actual rifle.

I don't think anything is lighter than the S2K. I have a pencil barrel AR with a TR-25 that is almost as light, but still about 6 lbs with a loaded 10 round mag (to make it lighter). It is lighter than a Ruger PCC. If that is still too heavy, I don't know what to suggest.

I have always wanted a 357 lever gun... so there's an option.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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VodoundaVinci wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:08 pm We had M1's for 20 years. I sold them as they were pathetic compared to an AR (for me) and too heavy for mama. We need a carbine under 7 pounds and able to take a Red Dot without massive mods. Money is not a problem as I have plenty of stuff to sell/trade for cash. She owns a Sig P238 that she adores and she's fond of Sigs as am I. I put the Sig MPX-PCC in her hands and asked about weight and balance and she thought is was pretty good. She gets that "Look" when things jell for her and the MPX had that look in her eye.

Right now the Sig offering is the one to beat. I just want to examine all the possibilities - the Sig mags are $50 so to get an extra 6 mags is $300. Ouch.

Gotta have a folding stock/polymer/lightweight and a rail up top for easy addition of fast optics. The last PCC in her hands had a red dot and she was mightily impressed and wanting. The CZ is interesting us. Basically we are looking at Street Brooms now....when/if we need to lay down massive fire fast to open a hole for escape. Sounds crude but...there is it. We have pistols and all that for personal defense but we are wanting something more tactical given the mood.

VooDoo
If money isn't an issue, the MPX is probably the way to go (or go H&K MP5, as they've got civilian semi-autos coming). The CZ is good, but very "plastic" feeling out of the box. The MPX mags are definitely not cheap, but they are Lancers and they're pretty near indestructible. Ruger PC9 is a great option for 1/4 of the price, but it's not light at all, so I definitely wouldn't have it on your list.

The benefit of it is that it can take common/standard mags, which is a benefit of a lot of PCCs. Have you thought about an AR or AK in 9mm that takes standardized mags?

Kalashnikov USA makes a couple that are cool.

https://kalashnikov-usa.com/guns/kp-9/

There's also a Draco in 9mm and the AK9 from Charles Daley.

It's hard to pass up the MP5 clone and I believe that actual H&Ks should be hitting the market soon if they haven't already.

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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DamnYankee wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:36 am What is the issue with ARs? Weight, or balance, or both? My 9mm AR pistol with brace only weighs about 1/2 lb more than my CX4. Both are under 6.5 lbs. Love the S2K, and it has a place in my car bag. But it isn’t a comfortable shooter, and not something I would recommend as a dedicated PCC unless concealment was really important. Definitely agree with a PCC choice that uses existing semi auto pistol mags. The CX4 takes 30 rd PX4 mags and the S2K takes 33rd Glock mags.
I have a 7 pound RRA A4 and she strains with it....I put an MPX in her hands and she lights up and says it's doable weight wise and that gun is in the 6.5 pound range so it must be the balance. This is why I'd like to shoot them as I don;t want to spend $2K for something she might not actually be able to use.That CX4 is talking me...but my guns are Px4's and Beretta only makes a 30 round magazine in the 92 series. So we couldn't share mags unless I buy the adapter to use Px4 mags in the Cx4 and then we are limited to 20 rounds.

Can't be simple.

VooDoo
Last edited by VodoundaVinci on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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bajajoaquin wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:08 pm The only pistol caliber carbine I have is a Ruger 44 Carbine. Although it’s not what you’re asking about, I doubt that 5 rounds of 44 mag will be insufficient to most any home defense task.

BD4152CA-7D6C-4195-BE9C-1504783D8967.jpeg
Anvil porn. I am so jealous.

Pistol caliber carbines are good for two handed defense and comfortable plinking. Haven't snagged one. Have pistols and carbines. Hmm.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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spara wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:14 am Lead Star Arms makes a skeletonized AR PCC that weighs less than 6lbs. I've handled one, nice, but kinda pricey.
Yum....no pricier than the Sig offerings....

https://www.leadstararms.com/barrage-sk ... pcc-black/

Thanks for the tip! Are the magazines Glock compatible mags? Do you know?

VooDoo

Edit - Magazine: Comes standard with 1 SGM Tactical black 33 round 9mm magazine.
https://www.sgmtactical.com/products/magazines/pistol/
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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CDFingers wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:16 am Anvil porn. I am so jealous.
CDFingers
It’s a Hill, about 185 lbs. wrought base, steel face. According to Anvils in America, it’s no later than 1850, and since it has a pritchel hole, probably not earlier than 1830. A little sway-backed and it’s hard to find a good edge sometimes, but I bought it relatively cheap before the hipsters found blacksmithing and drove used anvil prices up around $5/lb.

Re: Pistol Caliber Carbines - Your Opinions?

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I have 3 PCCs and I enjoy them all!
1. Beretta Cx4 Storm, 9mm, uses 92fs magazines--there's an adapter so it can use Px4 magazines--or you can get one set up for Px4--and can get an adapter for 92fs mags. GREAT ergonomics, weighs about 6 lbs, additional rails can be mounted on it, it's totally ambidextrous, and breaks down in seconds. Recoil is light and the stock sights are excellent. Barely long enough to be NJ compliant, but is, stock. Well-made PCC. Cops in Europe use them, and it was the "future" gun in the re-launch of BSG.

2. Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Gen 2, 9mm. Uses 92fs magazines as well, but with an adapter can takes Sig P320 or S&W magazines. There's a Glock 17 and 19 version but can't double with the others. Weighs all of 4 1/2 lbs, so it has a little more recoil than the Beretta. Similar in length to the Beretta. Looks like it was built by a plumber, but pull the trigger guard and the barrel flips up and over and latches, giving you a 16.5" package. I had to completely disassemble and reassemble the front sight (Which Kel-Tec ABSOLUTELY warns against) but it was far better after that. The only drawback was it wasn't NJ compliant with a threaded barrel so the barrel cap had to be welded and pinned. It even has a adjustable stock that is still, (barely) NJ compliant, because you TECHNICALLY have to disassemble the gun, but it only takes a few seconds.

3. Marlin 1894 in .357 Magnum and .38 Special. A cowboy gun! Mine was made in 1979, a JM, and its action is like butter. It IS a PCC and it's simply the most fun to shoot of any gun I own, pistol or long gun. Fairly light. Recoil with .357 is noticeable, but you barely feel it with .38 special. Unfortunately, nobody makes a 9mm lever action.
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