Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

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Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#1 Post by TrueTexan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:07 pm

Now he might change his tune in the next hour. But this right now is something he and I can agree about.
President Donald Trump announced Wednesday he wants the Food and Drug Administration to consider taking flavored e-cigarette products off the market.

Trump told reporters that “very, very strong action” may be needed to protect “innocent children” from potential risks. The FDA is still working on its final guidance on the issue.

His announcement comes amid a mysterious outbreak of illnesses associated with people using vape pens and e-cigarettes for marijuana and nicotine. In recent weeks, more than 450 people have been hospitalized for lung diseases, often accompanied by shortness of breath, coughing, chest pain, fatigue, vomiting and fevers.

The sixth of those patients was confirmed dead on Tuesday. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention announced last week that it was investigating the outbreak.

Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar said he, Trump and the FDA are currently finalizing policies that will pull the devices from the shelves.

It’s not clear if the FDA will comply with Trump’s directive. However, such a move by the FDA would only allow companies to sell unflavored vaping products, which are thought to appeal less to children.

Vaping products do not contain tobacco. Instead, they can be used to inhale nicotine, the addictive ingredient in cigarette, or to ingest THC, a main component of marijuana.

Trump’s announcement comes a few days after first lady Melania Trump expressed her concern about children using the devices, which have soared in popularity in recent years, especially among teens.

Notably, several former White House employees have gone on to work for Juul, one of the biggest e-cigarette companies.

As the White House weighs banning flavored vaping products from the market, worth noting that several former WH advisers took jobs at Juul after departing: Josh Raffel, former Jared Kushner aide; John DeStefano, former political adviser; and former Pence aide Rebeccah Propp
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-ba ... 28fd358d38
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#2 Post by Eris » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:10 pm

I can't support this. It's like when they banned clove cigarettes. It's just a way of punishing smokers by making it as unpleasant as possible.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#3 Post by shinzen » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:33 pm

The other issue with this is that it's not entirely accurate with regards to the lung issues- they've been able to link them to THC largely, not e-cigarettes.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/da ... ery-causes

There's a number of theories in the article, but it's likely one of these:
“I suspect that a purveyor of marijuana oil for vaping used too much oil or an especially dangerous type of oil,” Robert Jackler of the Stanford University School of Medicine told BuzzFeed News.
On Thursday, the New York State health department announced that Vitamin E acetate, an oily chemical found in some foods and lotion, was “now a key focus” of its investigation into the 34 cases in its state, after it turned up in at least one vape product inhaled by each patient.
The FDA and the CDC are clashing, but the CDC just plain has never liked e-cigarettes:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/07/cdc-fda ... break.html

They can be incredibly helpful for folks who want an alternative to cigarettes. And yep to Eris above, they are just trying to make it as unpleasant as possible. I switched to e-cigarettes about 8 years ago now after being a regular smoker for years. It's massively less damaging than smoking.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#4 Post by YankeeTarheel » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:08 pm

He'll change his mind tomorrow.

Actually, I wish he WOULD change his mind--this one's totally defective!
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#5 Post by Eris » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:24 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:08 pm
He'll change his mind tomorrow.

Actually, I wish he WOULD change his mind--this one's totally defective!
His mind was already changed out once. Unfortunately, the new one was taken from someone named Abby Normal.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#6 Post by TrueTexan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:35 pm

As a health professional I don’t like the E-cig. But for those that must have the habit then we do this. No sales of any e-cigs or their products to anyone under 21. Ban all THC use in E-cigs. Felony if caught with it, even in states where THC is legal. No flavors to be sold. Follow the same no smoking rules as for tobacco products. Same advertising rules as tobacco products. No science claims allowed in favor of e-cigs unless backed up by true data approved by CDC and FDA.

BTW I was a heavy pipe smoker for 30 years and I did inhale. I also quit cold turkey in 2000 at the request of my son. So I know what it feels like to quit. I was a rough two weeks.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#7 Post by Eris » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:43 pm

TrueTexan wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:35 pm
As a health professional I don’t like the E-cig. But for those that must have the habit then we do this. No sales of any e-cigs or their products to anyone under 21. Ban all THC use in E-cigs. Felony if caught with it, even in states where THC is legal. No flavors to be sold. Follow the same no smoking rules as for tobacco products. Same advertising rules as tobacco products. No science claims allowed in favor of e-cigs unless backed up by true data approved by CDC and FDA.

BTW I was a heavy pipe smoker for 30 years and I did inhale. I also quit cold turkey in 2000 at the request of my son. So I know what it feels like to quit. I was a rough two weeks.
What is the rationale behind "no flavors"?
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#8 Post by TrueTexan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:25 pm

Eris wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:43 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:35 pm
As a health professional I don’t like the E-cig. But for those that must have the habit then we do this. No sales of any e-cigs or their products to anyone under 21. Ban all THC use in E-cigs. Felony if caught with it, even in states where THC is legal. No flavors to be sold. Follow the same no smoking rules as for tobacco products. Same advertising rules as tobacco products. No science claims allowed in favor of e-cigs unless backed up by true data approved by CDC and FDA.

BTW I was a heavy pipe smoker for 30 years and I did inhale. I also quit cold turkey in 2000 at the request of my son. So I know what it feels like to quit. I was a rough two weeks.
What is the rationale behind "no flavors"?
As an attraction to the younger crowd that would normally not like thetas of the product. Kinda like when I was in high school there was Boone's farm Apple wine. to hide thetas of the rotgut wine and cherry flavored sloe gin. Taste like Luden's cough drops. Menthol cigarettes are very similar in that idea.

When I worked in the Emergency Department we had a head nurse who was very adamant that medicine should not taste like candy. That children should learn to take the medicine without being bribed by the flavor. BTW my mom felt the same way when I was a child. Anyway we had to young kids brought into the ER because big brother got a hold of the Flintstone vitamins and was sharing them with his little brother. Mom said the bottle was almost full but it was now less than have full. That would not have been a problem except the tables contained iron and large doses in children can cause all sorts of medical problems. I got to start the IVs and arrange transfer to the children's hospital.

We on't know what is causing the lung problems with the teens. Some say it is the THC but the same age teens that are heavy pot smokers don't have lung problems like this. It could be other chemical that affect the developing lungs of the teens. We don't have enough data on capping like we have on tobacco smoking to make any firm discoveries. We may find out tat capping will cause problems after ten or twenty years of use just like cigarettes with COPD and cancer due to the chemical exposure in the lungs. It might be that it takes longer in adults with mature lungs than it does teens.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#9 Post by K9s » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:35 pm

All the loudest anti-vape press can be traced to a couple of companies in North Carolina. Big Tobacco and the GOP are doing this "for the children".

They have been pushing this narrative for years. They are trying to take down the opposition.

If this is such a big problem for children, why ban all vape except "tobacco flavored" vape? If they are willing to save people with laws, they need to ban tobacco. Full stop.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#10 Post by TrueTexan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:48 pm

It is a big problem for kids. Ask the ones that are incubated on ventilators right now or families of ones that have died from respiratory failure due to the lung damage caused by the vaping. I would like to see a ban on tobacco and vaping, but that’s not going to happen.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#11 Post by Stiff » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:59 pm

Three words: root cause analysis.

I oppose any ban without a credible analysis of the root cause of the problem.

If you're gonna take my freedom, I demand that you have a good understanding of the problem first, whether it's guns or vape flavors.

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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#12 Post by senorgrand » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:14 pm

I have a problem with bans. Maybe enforce laws and put people in jail for illegally providing vapes to kids?

I don't believe white sauce should be on pizza, but I don't need a ban to not eat it.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#13 Post by DavidMS » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:38 pm

I have some serious issues to tobacco use but am fairly sure that vaping is safer than smoking. As for flavors, I don't oppose having them on the market. What I do oppose is having vape products that don't provide a way to taper nicotine dosing and not having regulatory mechanisms to prevent their underage sale.

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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#14 Post by TrueTexan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:50 pm

The question I still have what is causing the lung damage with these kids vaping. I was talking to my wife about this and she has two things. 1 these kids were over using the vaping. Basically chain vaping much more than what is recommended. The second question what chemicals are they using to make these flavors? Ever look at many of the compounds used to make flavors. They may be okay to use in foods you eat but they aren’t that healthy to inhale especially in large doses. One of the compounds we know of is Vitamin E acetate.

My wife taught Anatomy & Physiology for many years including at UNT Health Science Osteopathic medical school. Has a PhD in molecular biology.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#15 Post by shinzen » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 pm

Alcohol kills a fuckton of people too. As does overeating. And vape products do have a way to taper- I started with 12mg and am down to 6mg of nicotine- I've tried 3mg, but like "light" cigarettes, I found myself just using it more.

As to what is causing the lung damage, there are a couple of theories in the link I posted above- almost all of them are using THC, not nicotine, and they almost all were getting the juice on the street rather than through a reputable vendor. I'm certainly not opposed to regulation, but the way the US is approaching it is putting me on edge- harm reduction should be the number one goal, but instead, like every other thing in this country we jump straight to prohibition and having wars on shit.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#16 Post by K9s » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:19 pm

I know a lot of people who quit tobacco by using flavored vapes. I have heard recent stories of bootleg THC and CBD vape that damaged some kids.

When they move to ban tobacco, something that is far more widespread and far more teens in history have used, I will listen to this ban language. This is a backdoor pro-tobacco vape ban.

This is the same language they use to ban guns - "for the children" - that isn't used to ban alcohol or tobacco or fast cars.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#17 Post by Eris » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:33 am

I think one thing that probably ought to be kept in mind is that banning flavored vapes is not guaranteed to work. Ever heard of Mio? It's a "liquid water enhancer" - basically a bottle of liquid artifical flavoring that you can put in your water to make it fruit flavored. I've got a friend on a low carb diet who uses it. What's to stop someone from mixing it into vape juice? How are you going to stop people from adding their own flavorings that they pick up at the grocery store?
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#18 Post by shinzen » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:57 am

Yep. I have bought unflavored juice and a bottle of flavoring to add to it. This path will just create a black/grey market with even less oversight.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#19 Post by featureless » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:12 am

With all the ways we knowingly kill ourselves a little bit every day, why are flavored cig juices the focus of our ire? Air pollution kills more kids every year. Obesity kills more people every year. I'm so tired of the moral crusade to save us from ourselves by ineffectually banning this and that while ignoring the whole slew of cultural causations and big picture killers. Our addiction to oil will kill billions in the most miserable ways imaginable but we'll focus on vape pens for the children (where there are already laws saying nope).

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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#20 Post by shinzen » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:17 am

Yeah, that's one of the thing that pisses me off as well. Kids are already prohibited from buying them, just like cigarettes. Enforce the laws on the books. Bust the sellers for underage sales.
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Re: Trump Wants FDA To Ban Flavored E-Cigarettes

#21 Post by highdesert » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:20 am

I too don't think bans work, set the age at 18, put warnings on packages, ban vaping in enclosed vehicles with children, a media campaign on the dangers of vaping, more research on the chemicals in vaping....
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