We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

So many executive orders, so much twitter. What to do? Well, discuss it here for one...

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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Bisbee »

Mustang, it may sound self-serving but it is nothing of the sort. I wrote that specifically to point out the importance of focusing on the issue of racism. Maybe I should add:

"I can be rightfully accused of prejudice and bigotry but in America I cannot be racist because I do not have the power to end racism any more than a slave has the power to end slavery. (Only slave owners do.)"

Racism is an important political and social issue in our country. I am adamant about pressing this issue but I am helpless to change it regardless of my arguments: I am not White and do have the powers of White people. Place me in the camp of BLM activists who protest in the streets and on the freeway during rush hour (and make everyday people's lives miserable) because they can only hope to wake up White people, not because they hold the power to end the racism (which is literally killing them on a daily basis).

Do y'all get it yet? Do you see what I am doing by continually parsing this argument? This is not playing devils advocate for the hell of it. It is asking, praying, that Left leaning White folks (at least) recognize the insidious nature of racism in America and not become complacent of its systematic violence because somehow prejudice exists in all human beings.

And by the way, feeling self-deprecating and White-guilt over racism is equally self defeating as pretending it doesn't exist. Talking about it, taking a strong, courageous stand against it when you witness it, that is the only path forward for us as a society.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by YankeeTarheel »

Bisbee, as long as you refuse to call it "Institutional Racism" but simply "Racism" I believe you will continue to be unable to gain traction. Defining ALL racism as being the same as Institutional Racism deliberately diminishes the violence and vileness of racial bigotry.

We are ALL racists, you, me and that guy behind the tree.

We have 3 ways to address our racism:
1) We can embrace it. We call such people Nazis, KKKluckers, Anti-Semites, Nation of Islam, JDL, etc.
2) We can pretend we don't actually feel it, "Oh, some of the coloreds/whites/Jews/Muslims<etc.> are OK but it's the bad ones..."
3) We can accept it in ourselves, look in the mirror, and honestly say "I have this in the reptilian part of my brain, but I REFUSE to allow it to affect my decisions, my actions, and I will challenge those negative reactions and I will try to purge myself of those feelings, hoping, one day, to not feel them!"

And, hopefully, our children, our grandchildren, and our great-grandchildren won't have that. Already my sons don't have ANY prejudice against people of various colors or of LGBTQ+. They just think it's stupid, yet I must force myself to challenge any such stupid, irrational feelings, and, over time, those that I have, have indeed lessened.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Bisbee »

And yet everything you just laid out, YT, ignores the power structure that racism is. Again, I refer to my earlier analogy using the end of Slavery in our society. Who had the power to end slavery?

And now who has the power to end (Institutional) Racism?

Yes, racial bigotry is vile but racism is much worse because it remains hidden violence, educational, economical. It doesn't just ruin lives through singular acts of violence but allows and encourages wholesale acts of violence on entire generations of peoples.

I fear by spreading out the definition of racism to include racial prejudice you open the argument for "all people are responsible to end racism." I disagree since though we can all recognize symptoms of racism and call it out, only the people who have the power to end racism hold the responsibility to do so.

Ending racism (or sexism or LGBTQ-ism) doesn't require hope as much as courage. Each of your grandchildren will be tested one day when they see how they or their friends get preferential treatment for being white in our society. Will they have the courage to say, "No, this is not fair. In fact I refuse to accept this." THAT is how racism ends.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Eris »

Bisbee wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:56 pm
Eris, I respectfully point out that this woman does not seem to score high on the sanity scale. Understandable given that she may be under economic pressures which she herself doesn't completely understand. However, it is also clear she does not hold a system of power behind her thoughts and words nor does she represent the beliefs of Black folks in America as a whole. Therefore I feel there is no systemic issue to address here (unless you mean to say more than half of all Blacks in America are xenophobic -then there might be something to address).

Again, I argue this is not racism but bigotry of an individual which does not reflect on our society at the moment. It may if the downward economic trend for income of working people continues to make more Americans hate foreigners. Yet if Leticia was a white woman and did/said exactly the same thing in this case, it would indeed be reflective of racism as our society currently stands (even if she were certifiably nuts).

Seems kinda racist, eh? It's not. In the same way that affirmative action is not racism. This is clarifying the problem of racism in this country in order to concentrate our efforts.

But I do get your point of saying we all may harbor differing degrees of prejudice and the Golden Rule requires us to pay attention to our blind spots. Yet I feel your system of hierarchy (while maybe true in the psychological sense) actually detracts from the problem of racism and dilutes racism down to the level of prejudice, which we are all susceptible to by virtue of being a human being.
I really don't understand your criticism of what I said. Acknowledging that their are hierarchies of power and oppression does not in any way detract from or dilute the problem of racism. It merely describes the environment in which it occurs. Racism is not the only expression of power relationships, any more than viruses are the only expression of disease. We need to understand the whole system if we are to find solutions to the individual problems.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by AndyH »

Bisbee - I thought I recalled a discussion about this on the board but haven't yet found it. As a placeholder, I'll toss this on the table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power
Prejudice plus power is a stipulative definition of racism often used by anti-racist educators, including the American pastor Joseph Barndt.[1] The definition was first proposed by Patricia Bidol, who, in a 1970 book, defined it as "prejudice plus institutional power."[2]

According to this definition, two elements are required in order for racism to exist: racial prejudice, and social power to codify and enforce this prejudice into an entire society.[1][3] Reasons cited in support of this definition include that power is responsible for the creation of racial categories, and that people favor their own racial groups over others.[4]

The reaction of students to this definition tends to be mixed, with some thinking that it makes sense, and others perceiving it as an unfair redefinition of racism to portray whites in an unfairly negative light.[5] In 2004, Beverly Tatum wrote that many of her white students find it difficult to relate to this definition on a personal level, because they do not perceive themselves either as prejudiced or as having power.[3]

The definition has been criticized by some academics for relying on the assumption that power is a zero-sum game, and for not accounting for the lack of uniformity in prejudicial attitudes.[6] Critics have also noted that this definition is belied by the fact that except in absolutist regimes, minorities, however disadvantaged they may be, are not powerless, because power is organized into multiple levels.[7]

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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Eris »

Speaking of racism and institutional power

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 47764.html
The indictment was damning enough: A former police chief of Biscayne Park and two officers charged with falsely pinning four burglaries on a teenager just to impress village leaders with a perfect crime-solving record.

But the accusations revealed in federal court last month left out far uglier details of past policing practices in tranquil Biscayne Park, a leafy wedge of suburbia just north of Miami Shores.

Records obtained by the Miami Herald suggest that during the tenure of former chief Raimundo Atesiano, the command staff pressured some officers into targeting random black people to clear cases.

“If they have burglaries that are open cases that are not solved yet, if you see anybody black walking through our streets and they have somewhat of a record, arrest them so we can pin them for all the burglaries,” one cop, Anthony De La Torre, said in an internal probe ordered in 2014. “They were basically doing this to have a 100% clearance rate for the city.”
And this one is an example from a place where Hispanics have more social power than blacks - in this case the police chief was Hispanic. The power hierarchies that enable racism aren't always the same in all parts of the country.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by AndyH »

Eris wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:23 pm
Speaking of racism and institutional power

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 47764.html
The indictment was damning enough: A former police chief of Biscayne Park and two officers charged with falsely pinning four burglaries on a teenager just to impress village leaders with a perfect crime-solving record.

But the accusations revealed in federal court last month left out far uglier details of past policing practices in tranquil Biscayne Park, a leafy wedge of suburbia just north of Miami Shores.

Records obtained by the Miami Herald suggest that during the tenure of former chief Raimundo Atesiano, the command staff pressured some officers into targeting random black people to clear cases.

“If they have burglaries that are open cases that are not solved yet, if you see anybody black walking through our streets and they have somewhat of a record, arrest them so we can pin them for all the burglaries,” one cop, Anthony De La Torre, said in an internal probe ordered in 2014. “They were basically doing this to have a 100% clearance rate for the city.”
And this one is an example from a place where Hispanics have more social power than blacks - in this case the police chief was Hispanic. The power hierarchies that enable racism aren't always the same in all parts of the country.
You're right - and there are different levels of power. Do you think all of the power structure in that police force were Hispanic? How about in that town? How about state? The chief wasn't working from within a Hispanic power structure, is my bet.

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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Bisbee »

Well, no, I really didn't mean to criticize what your wrote, Eris, as much as clarify my position.

See, without clarification that racism is only when prejudice is conjoined with a power structure in society, the whole bloody can of worms gets blown wide open and dickheads alt-rights starts spouting sophomoric ideas using those expanded ideas of "racism" such as:
Google it: “Is affirmative action racist?”

Article after article after article about how affirmative action is not racist.

That means one of two things. Either nobody writes about it / thinks it. Or Google is massively stacking the deck in support of a liberal agenda. (Which we know from past media coverage is in fact true.)

Here’s what we can find:

=====

rac·ism

noun

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior.

af·firm·a·tive ac·tion

noun

an action or policy favoring those who tend to suffer from discrimination, especially in relation to employment or education; positive discrimination.

====

I’m going to break this down very simply. Affirmative action is racist at its very core, because it is implemented on the assumption that everyone who is white is rich or maintains an advantage over someone who is not white.

I’m calling B.S.

I’ve watched people who are not white and are LESS qualified be given promotions at companies over people who are white and MORE qualified based on the color of their skin.

This is the very definition of discrimination. It says that because of the color of one’s skin, this person should be given an advantage over someone else.

As a society, I’d suggest we are becoming MORE racist BECAUSE of the mentality that there needs to be special privileges given to one group of people over another. WHY are colleges and universities having separate commencement ceremonies for students … or separate HOUSING for students … based on the color of their skin? Martin Luther King Jr. is rolling over in his grave right now. This is everything he fought AGAINST – and here we are actively working to segregate.

When I worked in television, there was a box of tapes in literally every news director’s office I have ever been in. We referred to it as “the box of broken dreams.” It was the resume tapes of the reporters and anchors that just didn’t make the cut.

I’ll never forget a meeting we had with all of the producers and newsroom management years ago. We watched the resume tapes of two reporters competing for one position. We were asked for our feedback.

The female candidate was white. The male candidate was black. Not that it should make a difference – but in this case, it did.

The consensus was that the woman was a better reporter. She had a better on-camera presence, a better resume tape, and a more engaging personality. She could have been black or white or Asian or Hispanic. It didn’t matter – she was just the better reporter. Skin color had nothing to do with it.

But the news director decided to hire the man. His explanation was simple. “He’s black and we need some more black people here.”

Was this a case of “black privilege?” One could argue that it was. Should a person be given a position over someone clearly more cut out for the position … just because of the color of his or her skin?

No, I don’t believe that person should.

If we’re serious about combatting racism, we need to understand WHAT racism is. There’s no such thing as “reverse racism.” It’s ALL racism. Discriminating against someone based on the color of skin or ethnicity – or stereotyping someone based on that – can be viewed as being racist in my book. It doesn’t matter WHAT skin color the person is.

Black people can discriminate against white people the same way white people discriminate against black people. Puerto Ricans can discriminate against Italians. The Polish can discriminate against Muslims. The funny thing about discrimination and racism is that they know no boundaries.

That’s why I struggle to understand how in a society where we’re so focused (thankfully) on eliminating racism … it’s acceptable for someone to say, “I voted for that President because he’s black.” If someone else said, “I’m voting for this guy because he’s white,” wouldn’t that person be called a racist? Help me to understand the difference.

If a channel were to launch and it was called “White Entertainment Television,” wouldn’t it be viewed as racist? It’s a fair question.

When applying for scholarships before college, I applied for one that was specifically for people of Hispanic descent. I was in the running because I’m a “Reyes.” I could not, however, apply for a scholarship for people of African-American descent. Now how are these requirements any different from the requirements if someone were to offer a scholarship only to white students? Do ANY of these requirements foster anything other than discrimination?

I’ve watched students who are not white and had lower GPAs and community involvement be given scholarships over students who are white and had higher GPAs and more community involvement based on the color of their skin.

And so let’s bring it back to my initial point. Affirmative action is racist — period. It implies that because of the color of one’s skin, that person has what that person has. It doesn’t take into consideration the character or history of an individual or anything about a person other than an assumption that that person is who the person is or has what the person has because of the color of that person’s skin. It says that, based on the color of one’s skin, that individual isn’t as good as someone else and needs an advantage.

Martin Luther King Jr. said: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

If we’re going to truly come together to combat racism, we have to understand that it touches people of EVERY color and background. We need to think about the comments we share and the decisions we make and how they affect people. But we also need to stop thinking that racism knows and understands boundaries. It’s the only shot we have of beating it in our companies … in our families … and in our communities.

Kyle S. Reyes is President and CEO of The Silent Partner Marketing. He’s also an acclaimed keynote speaker on entrepreneurship, leadership, marketing and social media. You can follow him on Facebook.
http://newbostonpost.com/blogs/affirmat ... in-action/

:wall: Your head hurting enough yet?
In every instance, it makes sense to look at the question in very straightforward terms of who benefits in the culture's racist power structure and whether the racially prejudiced person is actually benefiting from his actions? In the case of the Hispanic police chief falsely arresting and accusing black men with arrest records for unsolved crimes, El Jefe may be racially prejudiced but he is not a racist. To me it dovetails well with stories of slaves known on Southern plantations as the "house-n*gger" who believes himself superior to and gladly sell-out other slaves in order to ingratiate himself to the master, keep his own position working in the Big House. We don't call him racist even though his self-loathing nature actually encourages the institution of slavery. Though he might honestly believe he is superior to field slaves and that the master treats him as a friend because they live together in the same house, the master certainly sees him as just a slave.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by YankeeTarheel »

Bisbee wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:43 pm
And yet everything you just laid out, YT, ignores the power structure that racism is. Again, I refer to my earlier analogy using the end of Slavery in our society. Who had the power to end slavery?

And now who has the power to end (Institutional) Racism?

Yes, racial bigotry is vile but racism is much worse because it remains hidden violence, educational, economical. It doesn't just ruin lives through singular acts of violence but allows and encourages wholesale acts of violence on entire generations of peoples.

I fear by spreading out the definition of racism to include racial prejudice you open the argument for "all people are responsible to end racism." I disagree since though we can all recognize symptoms of racism and call it out, only the people who have the power to end racism hold the responsibility to do so.

Ending racism (or sexism or LGBTQ-ism) doesn't require hope as much as courage. Each of your grandchildren will be tested one day when they see how they or their friends get preferential treatment for being white in our society. Will they have the courage to say, "No, this is not fair. In fact I refuse to accept this." THAT is how racism ends.
I ignored nothing--You're constantly trying to say that institutional racism is the ONLY form of racism and I vehemently disagree. Trying to re-write the dictionary so that POC get "off the hook" for racial slurs and discriminating against Whites or people of other colors won't win you any allies. Anyone who's been the victim of racial assault, verbal or physical, or racial discrimination, doesn't give a shit about "institutional racism", because the guy with the rope, or the waitress who's rude and nasty to you (or the customer who's rude) is the racist right there and then hurting someone SOLELY because they are the "wrong" color, religion, sex, or orientation. It's the same as the old Vietnam analogy "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that the objective was to drain the swamp!"

But if you want to argue that institutional racism is the fountainhead of all racism, including "reverse racism", I'm with you 100%. To reduce and eliminate personal racism and racist acts, institutional racism must be destroyed and and its ill effects reversed, and I'm all for that.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Eris »

AndyH wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:24 am
You're right - and there are different levels of power. Do you think all of the power structure in that police force were Hispanic? How about in that town? How about state? The chief wasn't working from within a Hispanic power structure, is my bet.
You make a good point, but given that this is near Miami I think it likely that the Cuban community in particular has some power - they've been influential politically, at least. I am, of course, assuming and you know what happens when you assume.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Mustang »

Bisbee wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:50 pm
Note the cowardice that these bullies display. Did they wait for some 20 year old guy who may have the ability to defend himself and give some in return? No, they actually chose their victim fearing a fight.

I believe there is a special place in hell reserved for cowards. A specially sadistic kind of hell. And it involves very large pickles.
Do you stand by your original posting on this incident?

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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Bisbee »

I've taken some time to meditate on and revisit my position. And I realize holes in my thinking.

Mustang, considering the two questions you posed to me together, you forced me to consider how I may harbor anger/fear of some White people. This is unfortunate because many of my friends, including my greatest teacher in life (who was half white and half native-american) are essentially Americans of European descent. Is it possible that my reptilian brain-stem have self-limited my friendships with my Anglo friends just because I've been injured by white people who took advantage of my trust and friendship? I'd like to think not but who's to say because (you're right, YT) we all have our blind-spots when it comes to our subconscious minds.

You put your finger on a pressure point, Mustang. My original post was an immediate, emotional response based on the unfounded belief that the attacker was White. Why would I assume such a thing? -Maybe recent events in politics colored my subconscious. But as soon as I saw photos of the woman police were searching for and felt shocked to discover she was African American, immediately I stopped myself to consider both why I should be shocked and examine how this new information about the attacker re-framed both what the attack meant for me and my own ideas about who xenophobic Americans.

So to answer your question directly, Mustang, I still believe the attacker reacted out of cowardice in choosing a nanogenarian to "punch-down" at and the punishment for that should still involve very large pickles. But I admit to feeling a stronger sense of compassion for poor Black folks who would commit such cowardly acts because they were venting their economic fears and frustrations. And there lies the crux of the matter for me: Do I feel less compassion for poor White folks who vent their fears and frustrations on defenseless foreigners also because of economic insecurity? The answer is yes, Mustang, I feel far less compassion for poor White folks. And there lies my prejudice.

In a psychological and spiritual sense, my personal prejudice will invariably infect my interactions with angry White folks I encounter. It's true that I have an easier time diffusing tensions with the Black community because I "feel" their suffering on a visceral level and "know" their angry words and gestures directed at me are not always because of what I've done. The same being true of Latinos here in LA (the irony being that I am more forgiving of Latinos here in general than the coarse, self-centered behavior of recent immigrants from mainland China even though I speak both Spanish and Mandarin equally well). But I cannot (or do not) easily generate the same feelings of compassion for angry Whites and I feel threatened by then in a way I don't feel with anyone else. To me this shows how ineffectual I will be with a growing segment of our population in the already difficult work of peace-making in this country.

This has opened a doorway of personal exploration that is far from complete. Suffice to say I am actively engaging my subconsciousness to allow information to surface as I pay attention and invite them to come.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by K9s »

The Trumpers call us out when we use other countries as examples (e.g. Russia, Germany). This sort of autocrat-led violence has actually happened before in America. If you get a chance to read this article, it really does sound a LOT like what is happening now. It also explains why Trump adores Prez Jackson.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... son-219006

As often seems the case today, American politics in the 1850s were nearly all-consuming and stubbornly tribal. So it was hard—and bitterly so—for hundreds of thousands of Northern Democrats to abandon the political organization that had long formed the backbone of their civic identity. Yet they came over the course of a decade to believe that the Jacksonian Democratic Party had degenerated into something thoroughly autocratic and corrupt. It had fallen so deeply in the thrall of the Slave Power that it posed an existential threat to American democracy.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by SilasSoule »

Eris wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:54 pm
We need not look at this through the lens of "racism". Instead, we can acknowledge that there are hierarchies of power and oppression. Straight, white, Christian men sit at the top in our society, with straight, white, Christian women just beneath them. Black people are lower down, with black men above black women. This woman Leticia places herself above Hispanics, apparently. In turn many Hispanics look down on gay people, though in other contexts white, gay people might be above Hispanics. Down at the bottom of the hierarchies you find people like black, lesbian, atheist, trans-woman sex workers.

Almost without exception, everyone has someone they can look down on, and everyone is looked down on by someone else. Our duty as human beings is to recognize these relationships of privilege and power and work to overcome them to create a society of equals.
That's how it used to be, but society has changed. Now you have female, black, Hispanic and Asian professionals (some of whom are immigrants) who outrank working-class white men, at least economically and in social status. This is one cause of the Trump phenomenon, in addition to long term de-industrialization and the resulting worsening job prospects and working conditions for working-class employees of all kinds, and on top of that the recent economic downturn.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by YankeeTarheel »

Trump may adore Jackson, who was a virulent racist, but he was at least, the real deal, a true bad-ass, not a cowardly bully like Trump. When someone tried to shoot Jackson, he whupped him down with his walking stick. He didn't dodge service, then act like a tough military guy. And, unlike Trump, Jackson only feigned ignorance when he was, in fact, well-read, autodidactic, and even knew all the fanciest dances of the day, unlike the lumbering lug that is Trump.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by K9s »

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:22 pm
Trump may adore Jackson, who was a virulent racist, but he was at least, the real deal, a true bad-ass, not a cowardly bully like Trump. When someone tried to shoot Jackson, he whupped him down with his walking stick. He didn't dodge service, then act like a tough military guy. And, unlike Trump, Jackson only feigned ignorance when he was, in fact, well-read, autodidactic, and even knew all the fanciest dances of the day, unlike the lumbering lug that is Trump.
Agreed. Trump is a chump. A wannabe dictator. However, his followers, his propaganda media, and his Pence make him dangerous. It doesn't make him less threatening to civil rights.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by YankeeTarheel »

K9s wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:04 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:22 pm
Trump may adore Jackson, who was a virulent racist, but he was at least, the real deal, a true bad-ass, not a cowardly bully like Trump. When someone tried to shoot Jackson, he whupped him down with his walking stick. He didn't dodge service, then act like a tough military guy. And, unlike Trump, Jackson only feigned ignorance when he was, in fact, well-read, autodidactic, and even knew all the fanciest dances of the day, unlike the lumbering lug that is Trump.
Agreed. Trump is a chump. A wannabe dictator. However, his followers, his propaganda media, and his Pence make him dangerous. It doesn't make him less threatening to civil rights.
Absolutely. Nothing's more dangerous than a cowardly psycho with power and a deep, inferiority complex.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by sikacz »

Race is an invention and not reality. Prejudice is reality and based usually on misconceptions of the other.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_0 ... -02-09.htm

http://www.academia.edu/321674/The_Inve ... iddle_Ages

Both are used as tools to oppress and retain power. Don't give into it. It has nothing to do with reptilian brains at all. Our brains as all of us originate from Africa. I'm amazed that people still accept and play the "race" game. It perpetuates oppression. Prejudice is what should be addressed not something that doesn't exist.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/arti ... he-unknown
Why We Fear the Unknown
We are quick to judge, fear and even hate the unknown. We may not admit it, but we are all plagued with xenophobic tendencies.
Just how arbitrary are these xenophobic feelings? Two famous public-school experiments show how easy it is to turn one "group" against another. California high school history teacher Ron Jones recruited students to participate in an exclusive new cultural program called "the Wave." Within weeks, these students were separating themselves from others and aggressively intimidating critics. Eventually, Jones confronted the students with the reality that they were unwitting participants in an experiment demonstrating the power of nationalist movements.

A teacher in Iowa discovered how quickly group distinctions are made. The teacher, Jane Elliott, divided her class into two groups—those with blue eyes and those with brown or green eyes. The brown-eyed group received privileges and treats, while the blue-eyed students were denied rewards and told they were inferior. Within hours, the once-harmonious classroom became two camps, full of mutual fear and resentment. Yet, what is especially shocking is that the students were only in the third grade.
Monteith has also found that people who are concerned about their prejudices have the power to correct them. In experiments, she told subjects that they had performed poorly on tests that measured belief in stereotypes. She discovered that the worse a subject felt about her performance, the better she scored on subsequent tests. The guilt behind learning about their own prejudices made the subjects try harder not to be biased.*
*Probably the one day Donald skipped psych class
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by sikacz »

dougb wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:12 am
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/arti ... he-unknown
Why We Fear the Unknown
We are quick to judge, fear and even hate the unknown. We may not admit it, but we are all plagued with xenophobic tendencies.
Just how arbitrary are these xenophobic feelings? Two famous public-school experiments show how easy it is to turn one "group" against another. California high school history teacher Ron Jones recruited students to participate in an exclusive new cultural program called "the Wave." Within weeks, these students were separating themselves from others and aggressively intimidating critics. Eventually, Jones confronted the students with the reality that they were unwitting participants in an experiment demonstrating the power of nationalist movements.

A teacher in Iowa discovered how quickly group distinctions are made. The teacher, Jane Elliott, divided her class into two groups—those with blue eyes and those with brown or green eyes. The brown-eyed group received privileges and treats, while the blue-eyed students were denied rewards and told they were inferior. Within hours, the once-harmonious classroom became two camps, full of mutual fear and resentment. Yet, what is especially shocking is that the students were only in the third grade.
Monteith has also found that people who are concerned about their prejudices have the power to correct them. In experiments, she told subjects that they had performed poorly on tests that measured belief in stereotypes. She discovered that the worse a subject felt about her performance, the better she scored on subsequent tests. The guilt behind learning about their own prejudices made the subjects try harder not to be biased.*
*Probably the one day Donald skipped psych class
Just one day? :roflmao:
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by dougb »

Granted, Donnie is the prime example of the difference between attending a fine school and getting a fine education.
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by sikacz »

dougb wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:33 am
Granted, Donnie is the prime example of the difference between attending a fine school and getting a fine education.
:beer2:
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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by Mustang »

Bisbee wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:37 pm
I've taken some time to meditate on and revisit my position. And I realize holes in my thinking.

Mustang, considering the two questions you posed to me together, you forced me to consider how I may harbor anger/fear of some White people. This is unfortunate because many of my friends, including my greatest teacher in life (who was half white and half native-american) are essentially Americans of European descent. Is it possible that my reptilian brain-stem have self-limited my friendships with my Anglo friends just because I've been injured by white people who took advantage of my trust and friendship? I'd like to think not but who's to say because (you're right, YT) we all have our blind-spots when it comes to our subconscious minds.

You put your finger on a pressure point, Mustang. My original post was an immediate, emotional response based on the unfounded belief that the attacker was White. Why would I assume such a thing? -Maybe recent events in politics colored my subconscious. But as soon as I saw photos of the woman police were searching for and felt shocked to discover she was African American, immediately I stopped myself to consider both why I should be shocked and examine how this new information about the attacker re-framed both what the attack meant for me and my own ideas about who xenophobic Americans.

So to answer your question directly, Mustang, I still believe the attacker reacted out of cowardice in choosing a nanogenarian to "punch-down" at and the punishment for that should still involve very large pickles. But I admit to feeling a stronger sense of compassion for poor Black folks who would commit such cowardly acts because they were venting their economic fears and frustrations. And there lies the crux of the matter for me: Do I feel less compassion for poor White folks who vent their fears and frustrations on defenseless foreigners also because of economic insecurity? The answer is yes, Mustang, I feel far less compassion for poor White folks. And there lies my prejudice.

In a psychological and spiritual sense, my personal prejudice will invariably infect my interactions with angry White folks I encounter. It's true that I have an easier time diffusing tensions with the Black community because I "feel" their suffering on a visceral level and "know" their angry words and gestures directed at me are not always because of what I've done. The same being true of Latinos here in LA (the irony being that I am more forgiving of Latinos here in general than the coarse, self-centered behavior of recent immigrants from mainland China even though I speak both Spanish and Mandarin equally well). But I cannot (or do not) easily generate the same feelings of compassion for angry Whites and I feel threatened by then in a way I don't feel with anyone else. To me this shows how ineffectual I will be with a growing segment of our population in the already difficult work of peace-making in this country.

This has opened a doorway of personal exploration that is far from complete. Suffice to say I am actively engaging my subconsciousness to allow information to surface as I pay attention and invite them to come.
Thank you for the thoughtful, introspective reply, Bisbee

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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by highdesert »

dougb wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:12 am
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/arti ... he-unknown
Why We Fear the Unknown
We are quick to judge, fear and even hate the unknown. We may not admit it, but we are all plagued with xenophobic tendencies.
Just how arbitrary are these xenophobic feelings? Two famous public-school experiments show how easy it is to turn one "group" against another. California high school history teacher Ron Jones recruited students to participate in an exclusive new cultural program called "the Wave." Within weeks, these students were separating themselves from others and aggressively intimidating critics. Eventually, Jones confronted the students with the reality that they were unwitting participants in an experiment demonstrating the power of nationalist movements.

A teacher in Iowa discovered how quickly group distinctions are made. The teacher, Jane Elliott, divided her class into two groups—those with blue eyes and those with brown or green eyes. The brown-eyed group received privileges and treats, while the blue-eyed students were denied rewards and told they were inferior. Within hours, the once-harmonious classroom became two camps, full of mutual fear and resentment. Yet, what is especially shocking is that the students were only in the third grade.
Monteith has also found that people who are concerned about their prejudices have the power to correct them. In experiments, she told subjects that they had performed poorly on tests that measured belief in stereotypes. She discovered that the worse a subject felt about her performance, the better she scored on subsequent tests. The guilt behind learning about their own prejudices made the subjects try harder not to be biased.*
*Probably the one day Donald skipped psych class
Humans are obsessed with stressing their differences instead of their similarities with other humans. Nationalist and fascist leaders stir up those differences, it happens in all races and cultures. Donnie is just playing the nationalist card, fear of strangers (xenophobia).
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Re: We should take Turnip's threats of violence seriously

Post by K9s »

Regardless of what alt-right trolls like Kyle S. Reyes and Donald Trump say, the "fear" of violence against the "other" is very real. It is, also, far more likely than violence from international terrorists or MS-13. As the country becomes more diverse, these fits of rage were expected.
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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