Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

So many executive orders, so much twitter. What to do? Well, discuss it here for one...

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max129
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#76 Post by max129 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:12 pm

The victims here are the young people in the UK. I know many of these people. They feel like their future as Europeans has been robbed. This WAS their identity = "we are Europeans". Now it is dashed on the rocks.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#77 Post by K9s » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:15 am

I think the EU is/was a great idea. They needed to become a larger trading bloc to withstand Russia, China, and the US. Without the EU (and with a Trumpian USA), they will be picked off one by one in bilateral agreements with the Chinese and Russians.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#78 Post by sikacz » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:44 am

K9s wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:15 am
I think the EU is/was a great idea. They needed to become a larger trading bloc to withstand Russia, China, and the US. Without the EU (and with a Trumpian USA), they will be picked off one by one in bilateral agreements with the Chinese and Russians.
The problem is exactly that it started out as a good idea a trading bloc. It then morphed into a governing body trying to be the United States of Europe. Unfortunately the same business interested that controlled the original commissions retained control and it has never evolved into anything that actually represents the interests of all the people of all the countries united. It’s a system for business elites, not a system for the people. I suspect that is a main reason it cannot address the social issues that are tearing it apart.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#79 Post by highdesert » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:00 am

Yes it started with the European Coal and Steel Community in 1951, then the European Economic Community and the Inner Six (EEC) and the Outer Seven (EFTA). The Cold War and the Iron Curtain in Europe pushed things along. The economic advantages of a union were touted and London became it's financial capital and largest city. Times change and there is resentment in many countries of Brussels telling member states what to do.

Over the weekend there was talk of dumping Theresa May and installing at least an interim PM and an alternative of if May won't go she should at least pledge to stand down after Brexit with an interim until party leadership elections take place. Since May secured an extension, parliament must pass a law changing the Brexit date to April 12th. As someone said, the UK voted for Leave in 2016 but MPs are mainly Remainers. It looks like the government will allow "indicative votes" or votes on options which leading Tory and Labour MPs have asked for, will take place. Options such as: cancel Brexit; May's agreement with a customs union (Norway style); Norway style plus single market access; Canada style free trade agreement; and leaving without an agreement. An interesting week ahead.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#80 Post by YankeeTarheel » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:19 am

The problems of the EU didn't emerge with its founding. They were there long before. The EU was the logical merging of the European Coal & Steel Community (the ECSC), the European Economic Community (the EEC), and the European Atomic Energy Commission (EurAtom). They all had the same member nations, generally the same by-laws and the same High Commission. The EU merely combined all 3. What is now the EU was then called the European Communities. When I was there studying it, my junior year, there were 9 nations, having expanded just a few years earlier to include the UK, Ireland and Denmark. No Euro, just "The Snake" which collapsed.

The problem was then that there were 2 fundamental problems: 1) Unanimity was required for any changes to how things were done, and 2) The only control over the High Commission was to dismiss the entire Commission. It was always a fundamentally unworkable situation built around a great idea--The United States of Europe. The idea had been around for years, but the "father" is generally considered to be Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi who emerged from WWI thinking that how Europe was organized was simply insane. Racial, ethnic, religious divisions in what was still basically Europe. His father's family were both Austrian and Greek (hence the hyphenated last name) and his mother was from Japan--a 19th century interracial, inter-denominational, inter-continental marriage! He looked to the USA, primarily, as a model.

The problem I see is pretty simple. It's a 100 Proof version of the problems we had and still had. The states of Europe aren't really willing to cede power to the Federal (central) government, wanting to keep it. Our original charter was similar: The Articles of Confederation. They were also a dismal failure. The Constitution really put far more power in the Central Government's control.

But the EU, unlike the US, doesn't have a real method of the constituent states controlling the High Commission and it's become almost sovereign. The short answer is to have a Constitutional Convention of Europe and re-write the damn thing from the ground up, addressing the failures they have faced.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#81 Post by sikacz » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:50 am

The point is it started out as a means to advance business. It was never meant to represent the people. It’s a mechanism to increase capital.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#82 Post by K9s » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:10 pm

sikacz wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:50 am
The point is it started out as a means to advance business. It was never meant to represent the people. It’s a mechanism to increase capital.
Ummm.... is there any other form of government?
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#83 Post by YankeeTarheel » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:15 pm

All wars start from economics or religion, and frequently both. I know of no exception.
The EU and its predecessors have kept the peace amongst themselves since the end of WWII.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#84 Post by highdesert » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:05 pm

At Westminster Palace today
MPs have voted to take control of Commons business in an unprecedented move to try to find a majority for any Brexit option. The government was defeated by 329 votes to 302 on the cross-party amendment, a majority of 27. Two ministers Richard Harrington and Alistair Burt - resigned from the government to vote for the move. MPs are now voting to ask for another Brexit extension if a deal has not been approved by 5 April.

Theresa May had tried to head off a defeat by offering MPs a series of votes on Brexit alternatives, organised by the government. She said allowing MPs to take over the Commons agenda would have set an "unwelcome precedent". The so-called indicative votes are set to take place on Wednesday. MPs will be able to vote on a series of options - likely to include a "softer Brexit" and another referendum - designed to test the will of Parliament to see what, if anything, commands a majority.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47701591

Actually a total of three ministers resigned and voted against the government, plus Damian Green her former deputy. So Wednesday the Commons, not the government will control the agenda to discuss and vote on other options to Theresa May's Brexit agreement. May admitted earlier that her agreement would not be brought up again because at this time it would be defeated a third time.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#85 Post by Hasaf » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:22 pm

I am a regular reader of The Economist, and this is a place where I differ from them. It is too much of a mess. There needs to be either another referendum, now that people are realizing what Brexit means; or, the parliament needs to stand up and explain to the people that the idea of a Brexit is, while somewhat popular, an all around bad idea. No Brexit!

The alternative is what we have, people stumbling around trying to make good result out of a bad idea. We are now in full knowledge that it isn't going to work well, it is time to backpedal.

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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#86 Post by sikacz » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:12 pm

European peace Is not solely due to EU. Possibly very little. More likely many people were simply tired and horrified of the wars the had fought and had no desire for more.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#87 Post by Buck13 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:34 pm

Over the weekend, I finally read something that explained why the elite Brexiteers are so vehement. Google "brexit tax avoidance" and it turns out the EU started planning a few years ago to try to rein in tax-dodging methods like offshoring, and the Brexit process proceeded almost in lockstep with that EU proposal. (Or did I already miss that in this thread or related?)

Additionally, the size of the bets placed by people shorting the Pound and companies likely to be hurt by Brexit must be enormous, so any great delay in the timetable would be a nightmare for those looking to profit on the disruption.

DEMOCRACY MUST BE PRESERVED!!! Methinks they do protest too much.

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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#88 Post by highdesert » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:15 pm

Buck13, I have no doubts that a huge incentive that the Tories see with Brexit are the tax advantages and the Russian Oligarchs in London see the same thing. Money, money, money,,,

On Wednesday at Westminster Palace (Parliament), the House of Commons took over the legislative agenda for the day. Many of the MPs stated in debate that if Theresa May had done this two years ago, there would be an agreement. The Speaker selected eight options for them to debate and then they did paper voting on the eight options which went from "leave without an agreement" to "a new referendum". None of the options got a majority but the one that came the closest (eight vote difference) was Brexit with a customs union with the EU similar to Norway's arrangement with the EU. All day Monday has been reserved for a second day to resolve options from Wednesday's vote. On Wednesday Theresa May met with the 1922 Committee basically the bulk of Tory (Conservative Party) MPs and said she'd resign as soon as her agreement with the EU passed, as a Scottish MP jokingly said, May "fell on her sword and it slipped", it didn't change any votes.

Meanwhile, Theresa May's government is taking a new tactic. She can't resubmit her agreement for another vote (defeated twice) so she's breaking it apart. MPs will vote on the withdrawal portion of the agreement on Friday (tomorrow) and the political agreement (what is the future relationship between the UK and EU) would be a separate vote after more debate. The Speaker has approved it, but Labour and the DUP Party (Nor Ireland party) said they will vote against it and it could very well fail tomorrow. If the withdrawal agreement passes the UK could get an extension to May 22nd, if it fails the EU has given them until April 12th or go through EU Parliament elections on May 23rd which May doesn't want to do.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#89 Post by Buck13 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:22 pm

Gotta love a journo who's lead is literally "wanking in the face of doom!"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tive-party
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#90 Post by highdesert » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:28 pm

So today, MPs rejected Theresa May's withdrawal agreement by 58 votes which means Brexit is extended until April 12th. Donald Tusk the president of the EU Council (all 28 heads of EU governments) has called for a meeting on April 10th most likely to debate another UK extension. On Monday MPs will continue to debate options that got the most votes last Wednesday and to refine where they want to go.
Buck13 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:22 pm
Gotta love a journo who's lead is literally "wanking in the face of doom!"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tive-party
:lol: Funny article. Theresa May is wounded so the wolfs are circling and who will be the interim PM until a leadership election is held? My money would go on Jeremy Hunt or Amber Rudd. With Jeremy Corbyn as leader, Labour doesn't have a chance to win, they need a new leader before the next general election. My money on a new Labour leader would be on Sir Keir Starmer, currently shadown Brexit secretary.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#91 Post by Wino » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:55 pm

WOW!! Seems Britain government is a kakistocracy, too!!. Fortunately, their form of rule makes it easier to make mid-course corrections, if they can find the courage to backout of Brexit.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#92 Post by max129 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:31 pm

Thomas Friedman article on Brexit from today's NYT.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/opin ... -news.html
Seriously, the United Kingdom, the world’s fifth-largest economy — a country whose elites created modern parliamentary democracy, modern banking and finance, the Industrial Revolution and the whole concept of globalization — seems dead-set on quitting the European Union, the world’s largest market for the free movement of goods, capital, services and labor, without a well-conceived plan, or maybe without any plan at all.
The rest of the article is actually very frank and helpful to understanding what is going on.

But it is not encouraging ...
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#93 Post by YankeeTarheel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:00 pm

Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, and, mostly, Rupert Murdoch & son, are responsible for whipping up the suicidal insanity that led to a "successful" call for Brexit.
The Murdochs are easily as dysfunctional a family as the Trumps, maybe more so. His 2 sons DETEST each other and about the only thing they agreed on was hating the 3rd wife, Wendi, whom they BEGGED him not to marry. One of them, the younger, is almost a centrist liberal. The older is to the right of Rupert, a detestable human being.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#94 Post by highdesert » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:23 pm

So on Monday 4/1/2019 the rebellious UK House of Commons had another debate on what they like to call 'indicative votes" translated that means alternative options to the agreement that Theresa May made with the EU and after four votes her agreement hasn't gotten passed in the House of Commons. The Speaker John Bercow selected four amendments for vote.
Following is the result of the so-called indicative votes.

DEFEATED 276-273 C) Customs Union - Kenneth Clarke

Calls on the government to ensure any Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration negotiated with the EU includes a commitment to negotiate a permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union, and to enshrine this aim in law.

The same proposal from Clarke last week was rejected by just 6 votes, with 265 lawmakers supporting it and 271 opposing it.

DEFEATED 282-261 D) Common Market 2.0 - Nick Boles

Calls on the government to negotiate an enhanced Norway-style deal which would include membership of the EU’s single market as well as a customs arrangement with the EU.

While Boles has tweaked some of the detail, a broadly similar proposal he put forward last week was supported by 189 lawmakers and opposed by 283.

DEFEATED 292-280 E) Confirmatory public vote - Peter Kyle

Says parliament will not ratify any Brexit deal unless thee is a confirmatory referendum to approve it.

The same proposal, then put forward by Labour lawmaker Margaret Beckett, was supported by 268 lawmakers and opposed by 295.

DEFEATED 292-191 G) Parliamentary Supremacy - Joanna Cherry

Says that if Britain has not ratified an exit deal within two days of the day it is due to leave the EU, the government should seek a further extension to the Article 50 negotiating period.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1RD39M

So the two options that gained the most votes after two days of voting were a Customs Union and a Common Market type deal such as Norway's relationship with the EU. Votes were closer than last Wednesday and it gave Theresa May and her cabinet a potential path to exiting the EU with Commons approval. Again, the "indicative votes" process is something Theresa May could have done two years ago but did not and parliament's rebellion forced her hand. The Customs Union was proposed by Kenneth Clarke, the "Father of the House" that is the longest serving member of the House of Commons and highly respected by all political parties. Nick Boles who proposed the Common Market resigned from the Conservative (Tory) Party and will sit as an Independent.

Theresa May announced that she wanted to discuss these options with Jeremy Corbyn the Labour party leader and would request an extension beyond April 12 from the EU council.

Through all of this Britain's parliamentary democracy is alive and active and ours looks fossilized.
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Re: Meanwhile across the pond and the chaos with Brexit

#95 Post by highdesert » Fri May 17, 2019 10:08 am

The UK didn't exit the EU on March 29th, instead after PM Theresa May's withdrawal agreement was defeated in the Commons three times, an extension was granted by the EU until October 31 (yup Halloween). The EU administration changes on Nov 1, 2019 and they didn't want this dragging into the next administration. Junker and Tusk will be out and there will be new leaders of the EU.

Still trying to get her exit agreement passed by Parliament, Theresa May entered into talks with the Labour Party, but as of yesterday Labour pulled out. Theresa May is very unpopular among her Conservative Party and the electorate, they lost over 1000 seats in local government in recent elections and Labor wasn't the winner, the winners were the Liberal Democrats, the Greens and independents. Theresa May is being pushed out as leader, if her bill to put her withdrawal agreement into law doesn't pass on June 3rd she's out and the Tories will fight another leadership battle. The withdrawal agreement law is not expected to pass on June 3rd.

A parliamentary system at work, another Conservative Party leader will be chosen and become prime minister without an election and then we'll see what happens with Brexit.
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