New Gun Diagnostic Issues

1
I was hoping to do a fun range report today on my first time firing my two new pistols I won at auction. Oh well.

Hoping to get some guidance on possible causes of problems and solutions.

Ruger Security Six 357 Mag 4" Barrel 1976 Model:

Seems like it will become a great gun. Fun to shoot. I was reasonably accurate with it first time out.

Four barrels work fine - long smooth trigger pull and I can "stage it" (pull trigger half way to just before release point if I want for better accuracy).

On two barrels the trigger is very hard to pull or sometimes won't pull. When it does, it pulls right through to firing the bullet without being able to stage it (perhaps because it took so much pressure to move it). I sometimes have to cock it for single action to be able to shoot when trigger gets this way.

On my last revolver with timing issues (gods, can I get some luck please?) the trigger was never hard to pull, it was just hard to stage and gauge the release point on a few chambers.

I tried two different types of .38 special ammo for this test with the same results.

I inspected and cleaned the gun as well as possible without taking the handles off to get at the insides. The gun sounds and functions fine on dry fire tests.

The Internet suggests the following possible issues and fixes:

a. Clean the living heck out of the action after taking the grips off
b. Change the weak trigger return spring

(See https://thefiringline.com/forums/showth ... p?t=179303 )

What else would you suggest?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zastava CZ999 .40 S&W Semi-Auto:

This is a brand new gun. Grrr. (Old stock. 2013 manufacture. Gun Broker, so I doubt returnable.)

This gun is having failure to eject issues almost every time I fire it. Not stovepiping -- last shell casing wholly fails to eject from chamber, and ends up wedged in the chamber-side of the barrel when 2nd round is brought up from the magazine. (Also darn hard to get magazine to eject so I can dislodge the casing out with a cleaning rod.)

I only had one type of ammo with me (Winchester Target Ammo FMJ .40 S&W 165 grain), so I could not test if the gun likes a different ammo.

Range warden thought I might be limp-wristing. Certainly possible (I am a novice shooter, and especially inexperienced outside of revolvers) -- but I don't think this would happen nearly every time when I am being careful. (That was "fun" too -- young 20-something female range officer helping me with a bunch of male para-military, police, and active duty military male patrons standing around in camo wondering what my deal was.)

The Internet thinks possible issues include:
  • Dirty gun (nope -- it was very clean)
  • Worn extractor hook (it's brand new, but I have not looked at this yet)
  • Extractor needs tightening or it needs new springs or it needs different springs for the ammo
  • Rough feed ramp (manufacturer is excellent but known for rough finishing inside gun)
From a website:
"If a spent case completely fails to be extracted from the chamber, the causes are either the extractor or the barrel throat and/or feed ramp. Extractor hooks that have been worn down from use won't be able to grab the spent case. A visual inspection will reveal if this is the cause, as the extractor hook will appear quite worn. Replacement will be warranted, though extractors are typically quite inexpensive. The extractor may also require either tightening down or may require new springs in order to function properly. The extractor should have some play, but not too much. This fix is also typically very easy and quite cheap. The other common cause of a failure to extract is a dirty or otherwise rough feed ramp. In this instance, buildup of carbon and other deposits cause the round to stick in the chamber. Likewise, a feed ramp that has been roughed up due to use can cause a round to fail to extract. You'll be able to tell which it is by a visual inspection of the barrel. In case of the former, usually a good cleaning will resolve the issue. Polishing the feed ramp can be done at home with either sandpaper or a dremel tool. You'll want to use 600 to 800 grit, but no rougher than 600. Remember that the goal is to polish the feed ramp and smooth the material, so avoid taking off too much material."


(http://gunbelts.com/blog/diagnosing-failure-to-eject/ )

Any other ideas?

~~~~

This is so frustrating after doing as much research as possible on excellent types of used guns. Do I really have to buy brand new from a store all the time? :angry:

-- Zagone
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Most definitely NOT in the bullseye league... yet!

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

2
+1 on the extractor. What does it look like? Worn down to a rounded hook or outright useless angle?

Or how about the extractor spring that keeps the claw down tight over a spent casing? Is it weak or even missing?

Only other thing that comes to mind might be a overly strong recoil spring.

Did Mr. Man (the R.O.) take a few shots with the pistol to rule out you being too much of a wuss to handle the massive recoil of a .40?

:D

Revolvers can be fickle works of art. Slowly rotate the cylinder to see where it is binding with the frame. I’m guessing the cylinder is too tight with the barrel/forcing cone on two of the six cylinders (what you mistakenly referred to as barrels).

If not that, put some spent casings in the cylinder and again rotate the cylinder observing the casings and whether they are rubbing the frame near the hammer/firing pin area.

Report back with your findings, Private.

BTW, even new guns from the factory are not immune to bugs like these... Consider debugging is part of the fun of firearms and you’re halfway there.
:thumbup:
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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You are reading too much, Z. Not paying enough attention to the clues in your gun. Get your eyes off the computer and onto the actual gun for clues.

The stuff you are reading (linked to) is about the loading of a round into the chamber. You are having problems extracting empties from the chamber. Two completely different issues. Hence your problem has nothing to do with the feed ramp unless the ramp is so heavily used it deforms to put a slight lip behind the cartridge (highly, highly unlikely).
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

7
On the revolver, use some new A Zoom dummy rounds. Mark them with a sharpie (1, 2,3,4,5,6) and make a note of which chamber goes to which round (the cylinder typically has some markings near one of the chambers, and that can be "chamber 1".)

Then dry fire the gun a few dozen times (say 36). Note any strangeness in terms of trigger pull on specific chambers.

Then eject all six rounds and examine. A Zoom dummy rounds are powder coated aluminum and will show any wear as silver marks. Be sure to use 357 dummies because of the longer length.

Post pics of the damaged dummies and we might have an idea what's up.
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"Person, woman, man, camera, TV."

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

9
Bisbee wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:43 pm +1 on the extractor. What does it look like? Worn down to a rounded hook or outright useless angle?

Or how about the extractor spring that keeps the claw down tight over a spent casing? Is it weak or even missing?

Only other thing that comes to mind might be a overly strong recoil spring.

Did Mr. Man (the R.O.) take a few shots with the pistol to rule out you being too much of a wuss to handle the massive recoil of a .40?

:D

Revolvers can be fickle works of art. Slowly rotate the cylinder to see where it is binding with the frame. I’m guessing the cylinder is too tight with the barrel/forcing cone on two of the six cylinders (what you mistakenly referred to as barrels).

If not that, put some spent casings in the cylinder and again rotate the cylinder observing the casings and whether they are rubbing the frame near the hammer/firing pin area.

Report back with your findings, Private.

BTW, even new guns from the factory are not immune to bugs like these... Consider debugging is part of the fun of firearms and you’re halfway there.
:thumbup:
Bisbee - Thank you for your assistance. I will report back on these items shortly.

Also - yes, I am good at computer research. Not so much at guns. :)

-- Zagone
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Most definitely NOT in the bullseye league... yet!

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

10
senorgrand wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:00 pm On the revolver, use some new A Zoom dummy rounds. Mark them with a sharpie (1, 2,3,4,5,6) and make a note of which chamber goes to which round (the cylinder typically has some markings near one of the chambers, and that can be "chamber 1".)

Then dry fire the gun a few dozen times (say 36). Note any strangeness in terms of trigger pull on specific chambers.

Then eject all six rounds and examine. A Zoom dummy rounds are powder coated aluminum and will show any wear as silver marks. Be sure to use 357 dummies because of the longer length.

Post pics of the damaged dummies and we might have an idea what's up.
Senorgrand -- I have A Zoom dummy rounds ordered and set to arrive in the mail on Monday. Awaiting dummy rounds and further developments.

-- Zagone
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Most definitely NOT in the bullseye league... yet!

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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zagone wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:50 pm
senorgrand wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:00 pm On the revolver, use some new A Zoom dummy rounds. Mark them with a sharpie (1, 2,3,4,5,6) and make a note of which chamber goes to which round (the cylinder typically has some markings near one of the chambers, and that can be "chamber 1".)

Then dry fire the gun a few dozen times (say 36). Note any strangeness in terms of trigger pull on specific chambers.

Then eject all six rounds and examine. A Zoom dummy rounds are powder coated aluminum and will show any wear as silver marks. Be sure to use 357 dummies because of the longer length.

Post pics of the damaged dummies and we might have an idea what's up.
Senorgrand -- I have A Zoom dummy rounds ordered and set to arrive in the mail on Monday. Awaiting dummy rounds and further developments.

-- Zagone
Solid idea. I always get a set of dummy rounds with each new caliber gun I purchase. They don't get much use, of course, but they are handy to have sometimes.
106+ recreational uses of firearms
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Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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Marlene wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:58 pm
Chambers.

There is one barrel, pointing out the front of the gun.
There is one cylinder that rotates...
Image
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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Bisbee wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:43 pm +1 on the extractor. What does it look like? Worn down to a rounded hook or outright useless angle?

Or how about the extractor spring that keeps the claw down tight over a spent casing? Is it weak or even missing?

Only other thing that comes to mind might be a overly strong recoil spring.
Regarding the Zastava CZ999 (also called an EZ40):

I am attaching pictures of the extractor. As far as I can tell, the hook does not look odd, but not sure I have the eye for it.

I can't find anything called an "extractor spring" in the take-down diagram for the gun and its parts so not sure how to find that?

Other forums are also discussing playing with the strength of the recoil spring (even trimming the spring length a bit), and that the gun may like hot ammo. That said, I was shooting 165 grain ammo, which is certainly hot. (And FYI - barely any felt recoil!)

I'm also attaching a picture of the recoil spring -- which I'm sure I put back on there the same way it came... but is there such a thing as putting the recoil spring in backwards?

Thanks,
Zagone
Last edited by zagone on Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Most definitely NOT in the bullseye league... yet!
Attachments
Mechanism 1.jpg
Extractor 2.jpg
Extractor 1.jpg

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

15
Bisbee wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:43 pm Slowly rotate the cylinder to see where it is binding with the frame. I’m guessing the cylinder is too tight with the barrel/forcing cone on two of the six cylinders (what you mistakenly referred to as barrels).

If not that, put some spent casings in the cylinder and again rotate the cylinder observing the casings and whether they are rubbing the frame near the hammer/firing pin area.
I'm awaiting the A Zoom dummy rounds as I can't tell much from just rotating the cylinder.

I'm attaching photos to try and see if the cylinder looks too tight with the barrel. Also a photo of the same gun from the Web for reference.

Ruger does not work on these anymore... Guess I need to find someone local.

-- Zagone
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Most definitely NOT in the bullseye league... yet!
Attachments
Close Up 3.jpg
Close Up 2.jpg
Close Up 1.jpg

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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I also ran a ton of brake cleaner, followed by a ton of Ballistol to clean/relube, through the trigger mechanisms of both guns. Maybe something magical will clear-up.

Contacting Century Arms as, in theory, all first time retail customers have a one year warranty from date of purchase on new firearms. The CZ999 is new -- but not holding my breath as to their answer given that it was manufactured in 2013. Not sure they even have parts for it anymore.

-- Zagone
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Most definitely NOT in the bullseye league... yet!

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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Good pics, Zagone. They help a lot.

The Ruger definitely looks tight where the cylinder meets the forcing cone of the barrel (up top). On my S&W revolvers you can usually see light between there as it rotates. It looks tight on the reference pics you sent too so maybe Ruger runs tighter tolerances in general. But I suspect you could see light on a few of the chambers that spin free, and less on the two that are tight. That implies maybe a crane problem (bent, misaligned) but maybe not. In any case, I’m thinking physical contact in that area which creates drag is the cause of your trigger problem.

The Zastava is a bigger puzzle. The extractor claw is new, nice and sharp. I see now the “extractor spring” I mentioned is actually the long, curved extractor itself. Doesn’t seem like problem there at first glance.

What is causing ejection problems then? Yes, possibly that wonky looking recoil spring. Possibly still he way the extractor is shaped makes it grab empties too hard or too lose. This is a problem that requires fiddling and trial and error. But I think it is still localized to those two areas, not the feeding ramp.

No, that recoil spring doesn’t look directional. Not sure I would cut it just yet. But the fact that you said the ammo doesn’t kick much implies that maybe another brand of ammo may push that slide with greater authority. And guns do tend to break in over time...

Once again, have someone experienced with auto loaders shoot the gun to rule out the problem being just how you are holding it. And try shooting a few diffeeent brands of ammo through it. Winchester white box are known to be hotter loads in general.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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Thank you Bisbee!

I am investigating local gunsmiths who could do something with the revolver as Ruger will no longer service Security Six pistols. I am going to get it to a range again first and see if my latest cleaning accomplished anything -- but I believe, as you think, that the cylinder and/or crane need work.

I have the A Zoom caps -- will do pictures and results shortly.

I think I may actually be about to succeed with getting Century Arms to look at the CZ999 under warranty service! Otherwise, there is a very expensive recoil spring set I could buy and try -- the only one currently for sale that is certainly for this gun...

I'm trying without any luck so far to determine what recoil springs for other makes of guns might fit the CZ999? Like -- for example -- there are $10-$15 recoil springs for the Sig P226 that I could buy and try if I was confident enough they would fit...

So much for frugal used gun purchases at auction... I did do about as much research as is possible before bidding, but darn.

-- Zagone
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Most definitely NOT in the bullseye league... yet!

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

20
I have one of the Rugers like yours, also made in 1976. Lord, I hated the factory grip which you still have on yours. I have shot a fantastic amount of handloads through mine and it did not like all of them. Mine likes 125gr jacketed best, and plain Lead least.

The pistol's trigger pull should be the same for each of the shot holes in the cylinder. If it is different for some of them, go see a knowledgeable gunsmith. You could also consult the shop manual for the Ruger revolvers written by a gunsmith named Kuhnhausen. I would suspect a bent crane. The trigger pull will be very different from that of a Smith & Wesson. On a S&W the double action trigger pull weight ramps up right before the hammer releases and one can stage the trigger pull: pull like hell until the weight ramps up, then pull slowly until the hammer releases, causing a much more accurate double action shot. One can not do this with the Ruger.

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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NuJudge wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pm I have one of the Rugers like yours, also made in 1976. Lord, I hated the factory grip which you still have on yours. I have shot a fantastic amount of handloads through mine and it did not like all of them. Mine likes 125gr jacketed best, and plain Lead least.

The pistol's trigger pull should be the same for each of the shot holes in the cylinder. If it is different for some of them, go see a knowledgeable gunsmith. You could also consult the shop manual for the Ruger revolvers written by a gunsmith named Kuhnhausen. I would suspect a bent crane. The trigger pull will be very different from that of a Smith & Wesson. On a S&W the double action trigger pull weight ramps up right before the hammer releases and one can stage the trigger pull: pull like hell until the weight ramps up, then pull slowly until the hammer releases, causing a much more accurate double action shot. One can not do this with the Ruger.
You may want to try getting some feeler gauges. and use them to check the cylinder gap for each chamber on the ruger. It should be more or less identical. If its not, take it to a gunsmith and let them fix it.
With the Zastava, I'd try a different brand of ammunition, it may not like the Winchester.

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

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Want to provide a quick update to this continuing saga. All help is appreciated.

For the Ruger - Very nice local gun shop (armorer level of training apparently) shot 50 rounds through it, didn't ask for payment (!!) since they didn't fix anything (I contributed to their pizza fund - seriously), and determined that in their opinion I am short stroking the trigger (not letting the trigger return far enough forward before pulling it again) since they could not repeat the problem unless they short stroked the trigger. Okay -- I will take their word for it as I am a fairly new shooter, although I have not had this problem with other revolvers I have used. So -- for the moment -- I will re-double my efforts at proper trigger control. (I still have the A Zoom caps for testing if needed. I have a promising gunsmith on speed dial if I determine I am not short stroking.)

I took the Zastava to the range once more using a different ammo than Winchester. It performed much "better" -- it "only" failed to extract 10-20% of the time. I then shipped it back to Century Arms for warranty service. Just today I got the pistol back with a note that they adjusted the extractor and did something with the "trigger block". Tentative praise for Century Arms for honoring new weapon warranty service on a new gun that I bought off Gun Broker and that they stopped importing something like 3-5 years ago (subject to the fix working).

I'm swamped with paperwork at work right now. I will report back when I get some range time.

Really hoping that better revolver trigger control, and that warranty service extractor work fix my issues!!!

NuJudge -- I agree regarding the grips. I have purchased Hogue grips.

-- Zagone
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Most definitely NOT in the bullseye league... yet!

Re: New Gun Diagnostic Issues

23
NuJudge wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pmThe trigger pull will be very different from that of a Smith & Wesson. On a S&W the double action trigger pull weight ramps up right before the hammer releases and one can stage the trigger pull: pull like hell until the weight ramps up, then pull slowly until the hammer releases, causing a much more accurate double action shot. One can not do this with the Ruger.
And I am used to doing exactly this with a S&W revolver, and was pulling the trigger the same way on the Ruger. My trigger pull is looking more and more suspect.

Thanks,
Zagone
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