Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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DMac wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:44 pm
Bobcat wrote:The reality is that the only person that can beat Trump is the Democratic candidate. Any vote for a 3rd party is a vote for Trump. I say this because the 40% that support Trump will vote; the other 60% not so much! Today only candidates from the 2 major parties can win the 2020 election. The overall
But this mentality is the reason we have a stale two party system. Saying my vote for a 3rd party candidate is somehow a vote for Trump is completely ignoring the message one would be sending to future presidential candidates that you don't need to be a member of the big two parties.

If people continually vote for two parties, we're going to keep getting the same "party approved" washed candidates.

In fact, I hate the entire facade that is the Democratic debates where the person with the best sound bites wins nomination.
Yes Democrats and Republicans will continue to dominate because we don't have viable third parties which is how the Dem and Rep parties like it. If third parties were serious we'd see them running cities, counties and states in the US like they do in Europe. Third parties don't put in the time and effort to organize, raise money and run candidates at different levels of government. Show voters that third parties can govern and not just write nice platforms and issue statements.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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Bobcat wrote:
DMac wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:44 pm
Bobcat wrote:The reality is that the only person that can beat Trump is the Democratic candidate. Any vote for a 3rd party is a vote for Trump. I say this because the 40% that support Trump will vote; the other 60% not so much! Today only candidates from the 2 major parties can win the 2020 election. The overall
If people continually vote for two parties, we're going to keep getting the same "party approved" washed candidates.
I agree, however, that is a problem that needs to get fixed, but on the other hand, I believe, Trump and his supporters in Congress, are an imminent danger to this country and are also setting the stage for even worse if they are not removed from office!
I wish it was that simple, getting rid of him will be a much needed, but temporary bandaid. You can get rid of Trump, but it's not like he's an alien from outer space. He was born and raised in the same country his supporters come from.

For a large part of the country, the Democrats just don't cut it.

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The Democrats have not yet figured out how they lost the last election and so will do the same thing again almost certainly assuring Trump gets another 4 years. As much as I cannot stand Trump and will never vote for him, I cannot (and millions of others will not as well) reward the Democrats with our votes if they do not change their ways.

And they won't....they will shove an Establishment owned and operated candidate up our asses like the last time (Biden) telling US that we have to vote for him or else. And millions will vote third party (or not at all) and Trump wins this game.

We get 2 choices and both of them suck. We have rewarded both parties with our support no matter how bad the candidate they field so we are getting what we voted for - more shit candidates. Why would we get good ones when we'll vote for bad ones just as readily?

Besides that, I'm pretty sure my vote means jack shit. It matters not how I vote - it only matter who is counting those votes. We'll survive another 4 years of Trump. It's gonna suck but we'll survive. I know I will.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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VodoundaVinci wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:37 pm The Democrats have not yet figured out how they lost the last election and so will do the same thing again almost certainly assuring Trump gets another 4 years. As much as I cannot stand Trump and will never vote for him, I cannot (and millions of others will not as well) reward the Democrats with our votes if they do not change their ways.

And they won't....they will shove an Establishment owned and operated candidate up our asses like the last time (Biden) telling US that we have to vote for him or else. And millions will vote third party (or not at all) and Trump wins this game.

We get 2 choices and both of them suck. We have rewarded both parties with our support no matter how bad the candidate they field so we are getting what we voted for - more shit candidates. Why would we get good ones when we'll vote for bad ones just as readily?

Besides that, I'm pretty sure my vote means jack shit. It matters not how I vote - it only matter who is counting those votes. We'll survive another 4 years of Trump. It's gonna suck but we'll survive. I know I will.

VooDoo
I believe the problems with our 2 party system, the shit candidates and the extreme partisan behavior of both parties can all be traced back to the apathy of the American voters. The United States is 26th on the list of countries ranked by voter turnout (56% of voting age population in 2016). For the most part, the only people who vote in primaries and/or caucuses are the more extreme members of the political parties and in most parts of the country, independents and 3rd party don't even have caucuses or primaries. As a result, the parties move toward the policies that appeal to those more extreme members. Also, the candidates that emerge from those primaries and/or caucuses are picked by those more extreme members. As the parties move more and more to the extremes, then we get the partisan behavior. And on and on and . . .This downward spiral took a long time to get where it is today and will take a long time to fix it, but that fix can only happen if the "silent majority" that fills the wide political middle become more aware of what is happening and then VOTE! With more than a bare majority (if that) voting and paying attention, then we could begin to fix our political system and recruit candidates that work for the good of our country rather than themselves and their "Party". If we could get voter turnout in this country above 70% and have people actually pay attention to issues, we could, over time, fix the major parties and begin to develop a climate supportive of a multi-party political system. And maybe get the government we want rather than what the more extreme want to give us.

As for you last statement: I cannot and will not survive in an authoritarian state and I am afraid that is where we are heading if we don't fix it today!

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Bobcat, I think we agree on many things. Voting in a district that matters is important. California was reliably Republican until... it wasn't. Colorado is an important place to "vote blue no matter who" and it matters in my state & district, too.

After the GOP hijacking by the Tea Party/Freedom Caucus/Trumpians, it seems that the Dem party is also susceptible to hijack by DSA types. However, the Dems are more likely to accommodate and assimilate different views and survive. The GOP, I predict, will reach third party status in half of the US states by 2028.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

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Joe Walsh, the flame-throwing conservative radio show host and former Illinois congressman, is moving toward challenging President Donald Trump in a Republican primary, calling the president an “unfit divider-in-chief” and claiming that the party is craving an alternative.

Walsh told POLITICO on Wednesday that he was confident he could secure the resources and support to mount a challenge against the president, and that if he ran, he would announce in short order. While Walsh on Wednesday would not yet confirm he would enter the primary, two sources who spoke to him said he was privately confirming he would announce his presidential bid this weekend.

“If I’m to do it, it’s going to happen soon,” Walsh told POLITICO on Wednesday. “I’ve been really surprised by the amount of anxiousness from people across the spectrum who want this president to have a challenge, because there’s just a real concern that he’s absolutely unfit.”

Walsh has little chance of posing a genuine threat to Trump, who’s light years ahead in fundraising and whose favorability remains strong with Republicans in poll after poll.

He was elected in 2010 as part of the Tea Party movement and served one term. Initially a strong backer of Trump, he became a steady critic of the president and called him “a danger to this country.”

When asked on Wednesday whether he could secure financial resources to go up against Trump’s treasure chest, Walsh responded: “Abso-freaking-lutely. There’s a drumbeat from a lot of people out there for somebody who wants to take this on.”

Walsh contends that based on conversations he’s had, he could win financial support “all over the spectrum.”

“I think if there is an alternative out there,” Walsh said, “the money will follow.”
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/ ... mp-1471632
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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My question is *why* do so few Americans vote and how do we fix that? Which comes first - Voters or Candidates? I'm of the impression that the ones who don't bother to vote or pay attention is because they have been disenfranchised and alienated by both standing parties and everyone knows a third party has no prayer.

So how do we fix it? We will not get decent candidates if people vote for shit candidates that do not address the real issues and do not engender any faith and have earned no respect for representing their constituents. We will not get more participation when the DNC fixes it's own primary.....I fear this little trick alienated so many lifelong Democrats that it will take decades for the Democrats to get out from under this rick of cheating, lying, and manipulating and backing a candidate/forcing a candidate whose only real attribute was that she wasn't Donald Trump.

We need more participation but we have, seemingly deliberately, alienated almost half the American Voters. Some say they are lazy and apathetic.

I think they have been kicked in the mouth and cheated so many times they are victims of the perpetual "Non Linear Warfare" between the two standing parties (which is deliberate) and have thrown their hands in the air and walked away to keep their sanity. We aren't going to vote our way out of the current mess and an awful lot of people I know are giving up hope. And the majority of them are Democrats. The standing Democrat Party is Establishment owned and operated and the rank and file wants to move Left. We need a Liberal Party - not a Neo Liberal party that pays lip service to Liberalism and them shits on it.

We will not get more voter participation until the poo hits the fan and then it is too late. It is too late now - We The People are no longer in control of our Government. For me personally this may be the first time in my Life I do not vote. I am a lower Far Left Liberal and I have no one to vote for....no one represents my view. I have voted for Democrats in the past because they were better than the alternative and look where that has taken us. Much of my family, life long Democrats, voted for Bernie in the 2016 Primary and for a third party, didn't vote, or for Donald Trump to show their rage for the DNC in 2016. There are millions like US.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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President Trump has remade the Republican Party in his populist image, but at a price that puts his reelection in jeopardy, a new USC Dornsife/Los Angeles Times poll finds. Asked if the party should “become more populist, stressing issues like strong borders, protecting jobs from foreign competition and standing tough against crime and social disorder” or should “become more traditionally conservative, stressing fiscal responsibility, defense and pro-business policies,” more than four in 10 Republicans supported the populist side.

Only about a quarter of Republicans said they thought the party should move in the “more traditionally conservative” direction. Another 13% said the party should remain “largely the same as it is today.” The Republicans polled included people who said they aligned with the GOP and those who said they were independent or unaffiliated but leaned toward the party.
Trump’s hold on the party’s voters has surprised and dismayed Republican elected officials who identify with the party’s traditional, business-oriented wing. Many of them initially believed they would be able to limit Trump on issues such as trade and immigration, only to discover that disagreeing with the president put their careers at risk. Trump’s triumph, however, has come at the price of alienating a significant slice of the Republican electorate, the poll shows: Among Republicans, 12% said they would be unhappy to see him reelected.

The possibility of defections among Republicans is something Trump can ill afford: He won his election in 2016 by the slimmest of margins — roughly 80,000 votes in three key states out of some 130 million cast nationwide — and his policies have mobilized his opponents and driven away a large number of independent voters. The poll illustrates the steep challenge that Trump faces in winning reelection: A majority of Americans eligible to vote would be unhappy if Trump were reelected, the survey finds.
“Right now, it’s a referendum on Trump that he’s losing,” said Murphy. “The question is how it will look once it becomes a binary choice.” Trump already has made clear that a big part of his campaign will aim to convince voters that even if they’re unhappy with him, the Democrats pose too risky a choice. “Whether you love me or hate me, you have got to vote for me,” he said last week at a rally in Manchester, N.H., warning that Democrats would ruin the economy by raising taxes and adopting policies he described as “socialist.”
The poll findings show how he is starting the campaign with a deficit, said Jill Darling, the survey’s director. More than 40% of those polled said they would be “completely unhappy” if Trump won, and fewer than 20% said they would be “completely happy,” underscoring the gap in intensity between his supporters and opponents. Among people younger than 45, 60% said they would be unhappy to see Trump win, and although he does better among older generations, even among those older than 65, about half said they would be unhappy.

Eight in 10 African Americans and two-thirds of Latinos said they would be unhappy with a Trump victory. White Americans split more closely, with 39% saying they would be happy and 45% unhappy. Not surprisingly, Democrats overwhelmingly said they would be unhappy with a Trump reelection, 91% to 2%. Half of independents also said they would be unhappy, 15% said they would be happy and 35% answered neither.
The survey found a notable division between core Republican voters — the roughly 30% of the electorate who describe themselves as aligned with the GOP — and the smaller group of voters who described themselves as just leaning toward the party. The Republican leaners were less supportive of populism, less in favor of Trump’s influence in the party and more unhappy about the prospect of his reelection than those who identified themselves as aligned with the GOP. They are also, on average, younger and more likely to be college educated than the core Republicans.

The two groups also differed on who they would like to see influence the party. Almost four in 10 Republican leaners, for example, would like to see evangelical Christian leaders have less influence. Only a quarter of core Republicans feel that way. Almost half the core GOP group would like to see Trump have more influence, while a similar number of the GOP leaners would prefer that he have less.

About 70% of the Republican leaners said they voted for Trump in 2016, but fewer than 40% said they would be happy to see him reelected. About 30% said they would be unhappy.
Republicans do enter the campaign season more confident of victory than the Democrats. Republicans on average gave Trump a 74% chance of winning. Democrats gave their side a 59% chance. In part, that reflects the continued impact of the 2016 election, in which Trump’s victory shocked many Democrats who believed Hillary Clinton would surely prevail, Shrum said. But, he added, “Democrats are classically the sky-will-fall party. They worry, worry, worry.”
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... p-populism
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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VodoundaVinci wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:49 am - My question is *why* do so few Americans vote and how do we fix that?
- So how do we fix it?
- We need a Liberal Party - not a Neo Liberal party that pays lip service to Liberalism and them shits on it.
- We will not get more voter participation until the poo hits the fan and then it is too late. It is too late now.
- Much of my family, life long Democrats, voted for Bernie in the 2016 Primary and for a third party, didn't vote, or for Donald Trump to show their rage for the DNC in
2016. There are millions like US.

VooDoo
Why and how do we fix it? I have said: "the solution is very simple but the implementation is extremely difficult". Some of the most democratic countries (among others) have mandatory voting laws and these have shown to greatly improve voter turnout, but I don't know what kind of mandatory voting law could even be passed in the US. Another "problem" with mandatory voting is that the people who do not vote today include many of the "low information voters". Possibly, if we could just increase voter turnout, we could at least drown out the "more extreme".

Third party We have had limited successful 3rd parties in the past but again, they won't work with low voter turnout. If a party can't get the funding then what we wind up with is 2 guys picked at a single meeting and then campaigning by driving around in a minivan like the Libertarians. We have to start by "fixing" our current "broken" system. We could start by heavy voter turnout for primary and/or caucuses where all incumbents (except the really good ones) are voted out and replaced with the "least worst". The other thing that needs to be done is to fix the party platforms to what we want. Then in following elections all "least worst" incumbents are then voted out after one term and replaced with the next "least worse" until we start to get "good" candidates.

Millions that voted for: third party or to show their rage This is exactly why Trump won and could give him a second term! Swallow your pride and self-righteousness and vote for the "least worst" in one of the 2 major parties, BUT VOTE! And then in following elections all "least worst" incumbents are then voted out after one term and replaced with the next "least worse" until we start to get "good" candidates.

Maybe not the answers you were hoping for but these are at least a starting point.

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Not gonna swallow my pride and self righteousness. So, you can blame me and another few million like me for another 4 years of Trump. I do not believe we are going to vote our way out of the current mess - the process has failed. The Government is running the show, we are not voting in/out our Representation. Our "Representation" is being picked, bought, and paid for by the Establishment/Oligarchy and the only choices we are getting are *both* owned and operated by the same thugs. Vote how ya want, it doesn't matter anymore. This is the attitude of the millions who do not vote/will not vote. It just doesn't matter to me any more. I have no viable choices and, no, I won't vote for who you tell me to vote for because it is the lesser of two evils according to you.

Maybe we'll get lucky and get a Democrat candidate I can vote for. There is that hope yet as it's early in the game.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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VodoundaVinci wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:49 am We need more participation but we have, seemingly deliberately, alienated almost half the American Voters. Some say they are lazy and apathetic.

VooDoo
I've always had an interest in politics since early high school. Then I thought most Americans shared my ideals and political interests, as I got older and lived in different places I got quick shots of reality and understood I was a minority. Most people in the US don't obsess with the social issues we talk about here, life happens and most people just want to get by and enjoy life as featureless' quote at the start of the thread said. Voting isn't a priority for many who work hard, have families and rarely have time to get to the polls. Talk politics and many people start nodding off. Arguing and put downs are real winners. :sarcasm:

People vote their interests, but they are also turned off by the slow political process of voting for someone and then nothing happens. So they label politicians as liars and don't vote and will tell you why they don't vote.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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VooDoo
If you do nothing, then you can't accomplish anything! If we have another 4 years of Trump, I won't blame anyone because I will be more concerned about what happens at the end of that 2nd term. Who (or what) will follow Trump if he decides that he has to abide by the 22nd Amendment and leave office? And, if he decides not to leave office, then what?
Last edited by Bobcat on Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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First, I do agree there is a real risk of Trump winning in 2020. Complacency that his "polling numbers are low" is not helpful.

The biggest weakness and risk factor is that Democrats just do not vote as reliably as Republicans - measured and proven many times.

The biggest effort needs to be the "Get out the Vote" activity. Especially in marginal/purple districts.

As for 3rd party voting, I am 100% against the idea UNLESS there is a Conservative 3rd party candidate that can divide the vote on the right.

IMO, all the Jill Stein voters out there really elected Trump. If every one of the people "protest voting" against Hillary (and not voting for Trump) had voted for Hillary, she would be President today.

Like many on this forum, I was not a Hillary fan - still am not. But I held my nose and cast my ballot for Hillary Clinton.
Image

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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max129 wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:47 pm First, I do agree there is a real risk of Trump winning in 2020. Complacency that his "polling numbers are low" is not helpful.

The biggest weakness and risk factor is that Democrats just do not vote as reliably as Republicans - measured and proven many times.
The Dems gun control antics will solidify Republican and moderate turnout. I'm not convinced any of the Dems will sufficiently motivate dems. Sander's new climate plan has my attention and moved him to first choice. Will likely do so for many Millinials.

max129 wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:47 pm Like many on this forum, I was not a Hillary fan - still am not. But I held my nose and cast my ballot for Hillary Clinton.
Stakes were too high to do otherwise. I'm stubborn but not stupid. ;)

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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Bobcat wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:56 pm VooDoo
If you do nothing, then you can't accomplish anything! If we have another 4 years of Trump, I won't blame anyone because I will be more concerned about what happens at the end of that 2nd term. Who (or what) will follow Trump if he decides that he has to abide by the 22nd Amendment and leave office? And, if he decides not to leave office, then what?
How I vote won't change this. It's out of my hands. I am increasingly convinced, as are many Americans, that we are in the midst of a cold civil war - neither side respects nor will compromise with/yield to the other. Voting will not change this. America has come full circle and like in the last civil war it is us against them.

Unfortunately now/this time it's not North vs South. The factions are many and the guy that we will not compromise with lives right next door. Democrats have demonized Trump and rightfully so...the Republicans and Trump followers hate Socialism, Liberalism, Democrats and will not stand to be disarmed which is a theme among Democrats almost to a party line. Given the impending/potential violence I cannot/will not vote for a Party that wants my guns in the dirt. This is End Game to my code. There is only one reason to disarm a free man and that is to enslave him.

If the Democrats could actually become Liberal and drop the desire to disarm free men they have a chance. Until then they are as bad as what we already have. I am terrified that we are gonna get 4 more years of Nationalism, Hate, Racism, and worse from Der Trumpen Fuhrer but will have to see if the Democrats can pull their heads out their butts and give US a candidate worth risking being disarmed for. Fingers crossed they stop dallying and come up with a plan to save America.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

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DMac wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:34 pm
featureless wrote: The Dems gun control antics will solidify Republican and moderate turnout. I)
This is the most frustrating part. Ironically they're shooting themselves in the foot by proposing laws in contradiction to a constitutional right many voters hold dear.
And I haven't heard any of the Democratic presidential candidates trying to reassure legal gun owners that they aren't out to take their concealed carry licenses and guns. Dem candidates are so focused on getting the Democratic nomination that they forgot that their target audience of Dems and leaners aren't the only ones listening, everyone in the US and overseas is listening to them and it will be impossible to walk back statements they're making right now especially after the RNC has spun them for months.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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The Government wants US disarmed. Republicans use it as a wedge against the Democrats but they want our guns in the dirt as well they just are not mouthing it as a priority. We are kinda getting off track here so I'll stop at this: The Government is becoming afraid of armed Americans and they all would like to dial back gun ownership/possession. It just incenses me that the Democrats tout it as some kind of priority to end all other priorities. If they show me a comprehensive plan to get US Medicare for All they will go a long, long ways towards tossing Trump. They have the House yet we still have not heard about how they are gonna fix Healthcare. Just about how they are gonna get my guns.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Trump 2020 (because someone had to)

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highdesert wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:20 pm
DMac wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:34 pm
featureless wrote: The Dems gun control antics will solidify Republican and moderate turnout. I)
This is the most frustrating part. Ironically they're shooting themselves in the foot by proposing laws in contradiction to a constitutional right many voters hold dear.
And I haven't heard any of the Democratic presidential candidates trying to reassure legal gun owners that they aren't out to take their concealed carry licenses and guns. Dem candidates are so focused on getting the Democratic nomination that they forgot that their target audience of Dems and leaners aren't the only ones listening, everyone in the US and overseas is listening to them and it will be impossible to walk back statements they're making right now especially after the RNC has spun them for months.
Yup. I grow tired of it being implied that I am a latent felon/murdered because I chose to use my 2A rights for lawful purposes. Several of the candidates, including Biden, are talking confiscation. :wtf:

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Given the makeup of SCOTUS, I don't see confiscation or mandatory buybacks (my tax dollars at work) working out. It assumes the Dems retake the House, Senate, and POTUS, too. I cannot imagine any Dem House and Senate voting to spend $1 Trillion to buy back all the guns or LE confiscation costs. Not gonna happen.

States and cities will continue their gun control and/or abortion restrictions. Some states will have money and healthcare, while other states are run like fiefdoms. All the while, most US and state seats are gerrymandered beyond competition. No Dem or GOP controlled Federal Gubmint is going to change that dynamic.

If your vote matters, vote. If you live in a safe district and state, send $10 to a red state Dem candidate and help us flip some State Houses. :)
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

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In 2016 when I voted 3rd party I was told by Republicans I voted for Hillary and was told by Democrats that I voted for Trump.

I don't yet have a candidate for 2020 but it won't be a Democrat just because I'm a liberal. I feel that if we can stop this thought process and validate 3rd parties we will motivate millions who do not now vote to do so in 2020.

Ever Democrats are as bad as Ever Trumpers for obtaining an end to the present cold civil war. Compromise....don't vote for shit.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

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