I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410?

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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#26 Post by Sarge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:51 am

Yankee.. I don't mean to be impertinent .. but how much training have you had?

There is no firearm that can make up for lack of training. One thing you said has been bugging me since I read it.. about possibly shooting a family member because a round penetrated a wall... Any round that is going to have enough power to stop a bad guy is going to, has to, be able to penetrate several thicknesses of standard home construction. Home defense is not something you can do alone unless you live alone. If you have family they have to know what to do in any situation where you anticipate using lethal force with a firearm inside your home.. as a minimum they need to know to lay down on the floor and stay down.. better to have designated places that provide cover for them to lay down in or at.. but they can't be running around trying to get their assigned safety place. And "cover" can only be defined by the weapon you are using.. cover will stop the bullet.. concealment means they can't be seen but that stray bullets/ aimed bullets can penetrate and injure or kill. What is cover for a 22LR may only be concealment for a 9mm.

The whole family has to know what to do, you have to be able to sort things out between somebody taking your property and actually needing to protect life. Protecting life may mean allowing a home invader to steal your toaster and TV and not sending lethal bullets off thru walls when you don't know what other family members are doing or where they are... most likely time / most likely crime ( this is called a threat assessment ) is a burglar at night ( this may or may not be true where you live.. you need to find out exactly what kind of crime happens where you live.. not any BS "you think this or that" you call the local police and get their assessment. Then you deter anybody committing crime at your home.. get a watch dog .. a dog that barks at things that go bump in the night.. and you get up and check things out when it barks and tell her she is a good girl and give her a treat.. scolding a dog for barking will make them stop, and dogs have a very limited ability to do threat assessment.. they give a warning.. you go check it out .. and then you tell the dog "good dog but everything is okay" maybe take a few minutes to sit and listen.. if you never respond or scold, the dog will quit coming to you about a problem, quit warning you.. get an alarm system if that seems more convenient.. get one that will do a dogs bark.. preferably that sounds like a large mean dog on any little thing .. they make detectors that can alarm at strange noises like breaking glass or motion detectors that detect movement near the outside of your house . They can be hooked up to both something that barks and something that sends an alarm to the police or monitoring company or sets off a loud alarm or all three. I like two systems a very sensitive one that barks when anything is disturbing it's sensors and stops when the disturbance stops and a second one that has a higher threshold more indicative of an attempt to enter that gives both a local audible alarm and calls the police. Everybody has to know what to do .. everybody's bed, where most folks are at night, has to afford some "cover" for at least the most likely directions of fire , both yours and the intruder. But anything that makes your home a harder target, and anything that tells a criminal that do not chose this house, pick another house that looks easer to break in, that looks more likely to have good stuff to steal, makes your a harder less desirable target ( try to avoid stuff that informs the criminal that you have firearms .. that just encourages anybody that is determined to break in to bring weapons to defend themselves from you, or even tells a criminal looking for firearms to rob this house first) .. but if they can't just kick down the door or if windows won't break at first attempt and something starts barking .. or an alarm goes off or they see cameras .. they leave.. usually... if they think somebody is home and awake they leave.. usually

But if they do break in.. you got to know what you need to defend and what you don't.. your job is keeping your family and yourself alive.. not to protect the microwave and X-box it is not your job to hunt down the intruder and kill them.. you job is to protect your family's lives period full stop.

You need to be more skillful at both weapons and tactics than the criminal .. and the criminal probably does crime for a living.. at least it's their second job.

Real training, real threat assessment, real counter measures .. and you have to understand .. self defense is an affirmative defense at Trial .. you may have to be arrested and charged with a serious crime before you actually are entitled to claim self defense .. lot of companies are selling self defense insurance.. I carry "Second Call" but there are others, shop around. Lots of good books by folks like Ayoob https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme- ... dpSrc=srch on self defense

and Branca https://www.amazon.com/Law-Self-Defense ... 0988867702

https://www.amazon.com/Cornered-Cat-Wom ... rnered+cat

check out this website https://www.corneredcat.com/

But nothing can replace having a sit down with a local lawyer that knows and understand the local laws and the local court system and can tell you exactly what she ( or he) needs you to do to give the lawyer the best chance of defending you afterwards .. nothing can replace having true skill and competency with whatever weapon you choose.. and nothing can replace everybody in the family knowing what to do to stay safe and practicing it occasionally.

The question is never what is the best weapon.. the question is what is the best way to defend the lives of my family and self.. and that may involve a weapon.. but it almost has to involve some thought about how to keep danger from ever standing on your doorstep to begin with, much less actually coming into your home in the first place.

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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#27 Post by YankeeTarheel » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:04 am

Sarge:

These are all excellent points and many of them I have considered, but you've given me lots to think about. I'm fundamentally a contingency planner, but home invasion, breaking into an occupied home, is very, very unusual here.

Like the black bear that broke into the neighbors' goats' pen 20+ years ago but instead of killing them, ate their feed (I found them walking on the road), most break-ins are economically motivated--most "profit" at least risk and cost. Opportunistic--unlocked cars are favorite target. NJ has actually one of the lower murder rates in the nation and I can only remember 3 murders in 20 years here in and around our town.

We have 2 dogs, both shepherd breeds about the size of collies. One is an EXCELLENT watch dog, always praised when she barks at the door or at things in the night, so we have that covered.

It wasn't common crime that turned me into a gun owner. It was the election of Trump and the empowerment it gave to the vicious, racist, misogynist, ethnic-cleansing alt-right that has brought back the KKK and American nazis to the forefront from their 50 year banishment to Oblivionville. Chanting Nazi racist chants, discussing how to kill Jew and Blacks (using the K- and N-words), a klansman openly telling a Latina reporter for Unavision "We killed 6 million (Jews, obviously). What's another 11 million? (undocumented immigrants, of course), and their blatant willingness to use violence until it comes back at them.

Guys like Jeremy Christian:

Image

http://www.theroot.com/jeremy-christian ... 1795689425
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My son says: "Don't argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!" -- YT

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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#28 Post by Sarge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:47 am

Hey.. I was just bouncing off your concern about inadvertently killing one of your children.

If you got it covered you got it covered...

I will disagree about the Klan and Nazi's coming back from oblivion...
I have marched with them as counter protestors at Forsythe County Georgia

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/25/us/th ... wanted=all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYKQdPMeJjk

Again protesting the Cracker Barrel ban on hiring GLBTQ at Cracker Barrels in Athens AL and on Sand Mountain ( Cullman AL ) that's where I met Pete https://www.amazon.com/Long-Time-Coming ... 1881548104 and became familiar with the Birmingham AL bombings .. called Bombingham back in the day

And as much as you seem to think Roy Moore is going to win... I thinking Doug Jones ( the guy who, after too may years, prosecuted and convicted the bombers of the 16th Street Church , the trial where Pete was one of the key witnesses btw) has a better than even chance of winning . I worked for Myrna Copeland for a few years .. need this book to understand Myrna's roll in all this https://www.amazon.com/Agitators-Daught ... B002NPCTC2 I know Sheryll and she signed my copy Sheryll's tribute to Myrna at the Myrna's wake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHcfoeB ... re=related

Anyway.. 30 years GLBTQ Pride parades , civil rights protests, GLBTQ protests big and small .. Klan has just been a planning factor you allow for when you plan out a march or protest.. never wear dangly earrings or any loose necklaces when protesting, the klan loves to pull them off and tear your ear ..ask me how I know..

And I admit .. while big Klan and Nazi gigs are few and far between down here in Alabama the protestors at the women's clinic sometimes have them as guest protestors and that is a weekly/ almost daily thing, currently defending two locations, the clinic and the doctors private practice office. And I have been involved in clinic defense for 30 years more in the background these days admittedly, my spouse runs it now at the local clinic and things just work best if only one of us is trying to run the same thing at the same time :roll: besides I have had some health issues the last few years.. anyway watch this film https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M0GFYLJ?re ... wbr_aiv-20 you will see what I mean about the protestors .. my spouse is in the movie, and we know all the doctors involved/ mentioned in the movie, and I have had a little input in some of the self defense measures for the clinics nobody is going to talk about in the film .. we were invited and got to attend the world debut of the movie.. on the red carpet before the screening I was resplendent in blue jeans and a nice olive polo shirt did my own hair and makeup ( not sure anybody filmed it, God I hope not, had it here in Huntsville last year, Mostly because the key doctor featured in the film is our Dr. and the other main Doc is a sweet heart and visits regularly if you know what I mean and Alabama and our clinic owner has been a key player in defeating and the target of a good deal of the legislation ) .. Back when I was running clinic defense in the late 80's early 90's ( clinic changed hands, got corporate and didn't want defenders/ escorts, then went out of business for a while for business reasons/ personal reasons more than anything to do with laws or protestors.. you just can't do this as a business, it has to be a calling or a cause.. the stress on the visible players is unbelievable ) .. got some new docs and backing money and started a new clinic, ( I knew the new clinic's current owner's dad back in the day before he passed, he was a doctor and a hero when you couldn't do much openly, and his son is carrying on a fine family tradition ) I got 31 convictions on protestors back then.. I'm way ahead of my spouse in that category :D .. but that's not her fault.. the protestors have gotten smarter and the police and city are so freaking tired of the whole thing, they are very reluctant to prosecute, but still will if the issue is significant enough.. we got one trial in progress?? ( many procedural delays ) right now.. the big thing now is legislative and fighting TRAP laws, so far we be winning and keeping clinics open.

Anyway.. from where I sit .. never saw that "faded into obscurity" part, and the uptick, at least here, was before the orange mangooey.. picked up pretty smartly right after they legalized marriage and the district court blocked some anti abortion laws around that same time.

Talk about an oldie but a goodie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKVnur5DkdI

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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#29 Post by zzrguy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:49 pm

K9s wrote:
YankeeTarheel wrote:
Thanks. Now I understand. I may just stick with my 9mm handguns and PCCs. The VP9 can be gotten out of its safe an loaded in just seconds.
I sorta went through the shotgun vs PCC thing myself recently. I thought I should have a shotgun but have two PCCs. I really like the shotgun (Mossberg 930), but it really made me realize that the PCC is probably a better tool for my situation. If you already have the Sub2k and CX4, you really have no need for a shotgun unless you just really want one.

Best of luck in your quest!

EDIT: I forgot to add the link to 410 Shotgun video from Paul Harrell. He has a lot of really good videos on shotguns.

.410 Shotgun for Home Defense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQD77feU-rY

Shotguns don't suck for Home Defense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI
I can say from experience (training) that a shot gun is a good HD gun till the shooting starts. I get to train and train with a wide variety of people one group train like they fight (earplugs not muffs) and as a joke on me(the new guy) they let me be the lead man after entering the shoot house we had to travel 15ft down a hallway to a closed door a bad guy popped up in the hallway and I dumped two 12ga rounds down the hallway it was like a stun grenade going off the first round rang my bell and I don't remember the second round. The over pressure from a shotgun can be shock if you never felt it.

After they had a good laugh and my head cleared we ran it again this time I was ready for it and had no real effect on the rest of the scenario. I keep a Kimber 1911 and a Rossi 92 in 45lc as my house guns cause of that training.

If you can't get it done with 10 rounds of 45lc in your house your not getting it done at all. Same goose for 45 ACP.
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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#30 Post by K9s » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:21 pm

This thread has a lot of good opinion and advice. Thanks, everyone!
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#31 Post by YankeeTarheel » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:29 pm

Sarge wrote:Hey.. I was just bouncing off your concern about inadvertently killing one of your children.

If you got it covered you got it covered...

I will disagree about the Klan and Nazi's coming back from oblivion...
I have marched with them as counter protestors at Forsythe County Georgia

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/25/us/th ... wanted=all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYKQdPMeJjk

Again protesting the Cracker Barrel ban on hiring GLBTQ at Cracker Barrels in Athens AL and on Sand Mountain ( Cullman AL ) that's where I met Pete https://www.amazon.com/Long-Time-Coming ... 1881548104 and became familiar with the Birmingham AL bombings .. called Bombingham back in the day

And as much as you seem to think Roy Moore is going to win... I thinking Doug Jones ( the guy who, after too may years, prosecuted and convicted the bombers of the 16th Street Church , the trial where Pete was one of the key witnesses btw) has a better than even chance of winning . I worked for Myrna Copeland for a few years .. need this book to understand Myrna's roll in all this https://www.amazon.com/Agitators-Daught ... B002NPCTC2 I know Sheryll and she signed my copy Sheryll's tribute to Myrna at the Myrna's wake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHcfoeB ... re=related

Anyway.. 30 years GLBTQ Pride parades , civil rights protests, GLBTQ protests big and small .. Klan has just been a planning factor you allow for when you plan out a march or protest.. never wear dangly earrings or any loose necklaces when protesting, the klan loves to pull them off and tear your ear ..ask me how I know..

And I admit .. while big Klan and Nazi gigs are few and far between down here in Alabama the protestors at the women's clinic sometimes have them as guest protestors and that is a weekly/ almost daily thing, currently defending two locations, the clinic and the doctors private practice office. And I have been involved in clinic defense for 30 years more in the background these days admittedly, my spouse runs it now at the local clinic and things just work best if only one of us is trying to run the same thing at the same time :roll: besides I have had some health issues the last few years.. anyway watch this film https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M0GFYLJ?re ... wbr_aiv-20 you will see what I mean about the protestors .. my spouse is in the movie, and we know all the doctors involved/ mentioned in the movie, and I have had a little input in some of the self defense measures for the clinics nobody is going to talk about in the film .. we were invited and got to attend the world debut of the movie.. on the red carpet before the screening I was resplendent in blue jeans and a nice olive polo shirt did my own hair and makeup ( not sure anybody filmed it, God I hope not, had it here in Huntsville last year, Mostly because the key doctor featured in the film is our Dr. and the other main Doc is a sweet heart and visits regularly if you know what I mean and Alabama and our clinic owner has been a key player in defeating and the target of a good deal of the legislation ) .. Back when I was running clinic defense in the late 80's early 90's ( clinic changed hands, got corporate and didn't want defenders/ escorts, then went out of business for a while for business reasons/ personal reasons more than anything to do with laws or protestors.. you just can't do this as a business, it has to be a calling or a cause.. the stress on the visible players is unbelievable ) .. got some new docs and backing money and started a new clinic, ( I knew the new clinic's current owner's dad back in the day before he passed, he was a doctor and a hero when you couldn't do much openly, and his son is carrying on a fine family tradition ) I got 31 convictions on protestors back then.. I'm way ahead of my spouse in that category :D .. but that's not her fault.. the protestors have gotten smarter and the police and city are so freaking tired of the whole thing, they are very reluctant to prosecute, but still will if the issue is significant enough.. we got one trial in progress?? ( many procedural delays ) right now.. the big thing now is legislative and fighting TRAP laws, so far we be winning and keeping clinics open.

Anyway.. from where I sit .. never saw that "faded into obscurity" part, and the uptick, at least here, was before the orange mangooey.. picked up pretty smartly right after they legalized marriage and the district court blocked some anti abortion laws around that same time.

Talk about an oldie but a goodie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKVnur5DkdI
Sarge, I bow to your superior knowledge...OUCH! (no intentional piercings on this guy...did have an UNintentional piercing of 2 fingers once. Accident.)

The clinics, those bastions of womens' rights, have long been targets of violence. I didn't connect them with the White Supremacists, however, but always saw them as a clear indicator that the far right will stop at NOTHING to achieve their ends (Like Erik Rudolph bombing the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, and letting some poor innocent schmoe take the rap for it, knowing full well the guy was innocent)

But the fact is the number of hate crimes EXPLODED over the last year all across the nation. By the Inauguration of the Orange Dumptastrophe, there were something like 1200, and 95% were by the racists, and only the other 5% by, for lack of a better term, the antifa. Despite the emphasis on "angry Muslims", it remains that the vast majority of terror incidents are by right-wing White men.
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
My son says: "Don't argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!" -- YT

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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#32 Post by Sarge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:12 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Sarge wrote:Hey.. I was just bouncing off your concern about inadvertently killing one of your children.

If you got it covered you got it covered...

I will disagree about the Klan and Nazi's coming back from oblivion...
I have marched with them as counter protestors at Forsythe County Georgia

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/25/us/th ... wanted=all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYKQdPMeJjk

Again protesting the Cracker Barrel ban on hiring GLBTQ at Cracker Barrels in Athens AL and on Sand Mountain ( Cullman AL ) that's where I met Pete https://www.amazon.com/Long-Time-Coming ... 1881548104 and became familiar with the Birmingham AL bombings .. called Bombingham back in the day

And as much as you seem to think Roy Moore is going to win... I thinking Doug Jones ( the guy who, after too may years, prosecuted and convicted the bombers of the 16th Street Church , the trial where Pete was one of the key witnesses btw) has a better than even chance of winning . I worked for Myrna Copeland for a few years .. need this book to understand Myrna's roll in all this https://www.amazon.com/Agitators-Daught ... B002NPCTC2 I know Sheryll and she signed my copy Sheryll's tribute to Myrna at the Myrna's wake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHcfoeB ... re=related

Anyway.. 30 years GLBTQ Pride parades , civil rights protests, GLBTQ protests big and small .. Klan has just been a planning factor you allow for when you plan out a march or protest.. never wear dangly earrings or any loose necklaces when protesting, the klan loves to pull them off and tear your ear ..ask me how I know..

And I admit .. while big Klan and Nazi gigs are few and far between down here in Alabama the protestors at the women's clinic sometimes have them as guest protestors and that is a weekly/ almost daily thing, currently defending two locations, the clinic and the doctors private practice office. And I have been involved in clinic defense for 30 years more in the background these days admittedly, my spouse runs it now at the local clinic and things just work best if only one of us is trying to run the same thing at the same time :roll: besides I have had some health issues the last few years.. anyway watch this film https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M0GFYLJ?re ... wbr_aiv-20 you will see what I mean about the protestors .. my spouse is in the movie, and we know all the doctors involved/ mentioned in the movie, and I have had a little input in some of the self defense measures for the clinics nobody is going to talk about in the film .. we were invited and got to attend the world debut of the movie.. on the red carpet before the screening I was resplendent in blue jeans and a nice olive polo shirt did my own hair and makeup ( not sure anybody filmed it, God I hope not, had it here in Huntsville last year, Mostly because the key doctor featured in the film is our Dr. and the other main Doc is a sweet heart and visits regularly if you know what I mean and Alabama and our clinic owner has been a key player in defeating and the target of a good deal of the legislation ) .. Back when I was running clinic defense in the late 80's early 90's ( clinic changed hands, got corporate and didn't want defenders/ escorts, then went out of business for a while for business reasons/ personal reasons more than anything to do with laws or protestors.. you just can't do this as a business, it has to be a calling or a cause.. the stress on the visible players is unbelievable ) .. got some new docs and backing money and started a new clinic, ( I knew the new clinic's current owner's dad back in the day before he passed, he was a doctor and a hero when you couldn't do much openly, and his son is carrying on a fine family tradition ) I got 31 convictions on protestors back then.. I'm way ahead of my spouse in that category :D .. but that's not her fault.. the protestors have gotten smarter and the police and city are so freaking tired of the whole thing, they are very reluctant to prosecute, but still will if the issue is significant enough.. we got one trial in progress?? ( many procedural delays ) right now.. the big thing now is legislative and fighting TRAP laws, so far we be winning and keeping clinics open.

Anyway.. from where I sit .. never saw that "faded into obscurity" part, and the uptick, at least here, was before the orange mangooey.. picked up pretty smartly right after they legalized marriage and the district court blocked some anti abortion laws around that same time.

Talk about an oldie but a goodie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKVnur5DkdI
Sarge, I bow to your superior knowledge...OUCH! (no intentional piercings on this guy...did have an UNintentional piercing of 2 fingers once. Accident.)

The clinics, those bastions of womens' rights, have long been targets of violence. I didn't connect them with the White Supremacists, however, but always saw them as a clear indicator that the far right will stop at NOTHING to achieve their ends (Like Erik Rudolph bombing the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, and letting some poor innocent schmoe take the rap for it, knowing full well the guy was innocent)

But the fact is the number of hate crimes EXPLODED over the last year all across the nation. By the Inauguration of the Orange Dumptastrophe, there were something like 1200, and 95% were by the racists, and only the other 5% by, for lack of a better term, the antifa. Despite the emphasis on "angry Muslims", it remains that the vast majority of terror incidents are by right-wing White men.
Yeah.. but probably not home invasions, so what was the thing about your kid about and why are you talking about something a hard to conceal as a shotgun or Judge.. I mean if you carry a purse, okay on the judge ...

And any firearm is basically offensive .. defensive is a vest.. the typical personal attack is a blitz.. hyper aggressive no time to respond or counter.. vests to do the job and not be overly noticeable have to be custom made/ fitted and with the way things are going probably a helmet..

Are you familiar with the Tueller Drill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHYRBNc9r8

I don't know if you know but check this out https://www.safeguardclothing.com/coolm ... -stab/This is not just a level II vest.. good up to 9mm .. but it is also stab and slash resistant which I think could be a bigger threat, and it is soft and flexible http://ped-cast.homeoffice.gov.uk/stand ... stance.pdf

another approach that can give a giant offensive edge to the defense is this https://www.uline.com/BL_1732/Durarmor- ... istant-Glv or https://www.uline.com/BL_6537/Ansell-Hy ... ema-Gloves

or even https://www.uline.com/BL_1394/Ansell-HyFlex-HPPE-Sleeve if you wear long sleeves you still need to wear the gloves... not a bad thing if you can safely grab the knife or block it with your arm


and this arm and hand armor is cheap check the prices https://www.uline.com/Grp_340/Cut-Resistant-Gloves


Just a thought .. I got the spouse and son level IIIA with non-newtonian trauma plates .. trick is to get them to actually wear them, especially in the summer strictly for clinic protection body armor sows you down and can get hot to wear in the heat you need to pair it with some of the new sports clothing with built in cooling capacity this stuff works shop around there are other brands but I haven't tested them personally
Last edited by Sarge on Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#33 Post by YankeeTarheel » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:21 pm

Sarge,
I think we're mixing apples and orangeberg pipe! Home defense for things that go bump in the night seems to me to be entirely different than street-type attacks you can plan for, like guarding the clinics from the radical religious nuts.

The gentleman who interrupted Devin Kelley's murderous rampage, despite being a former NRA instructor, was actually fairly unprepared. He had to load a mag for his AR-15 before he could take Kelley on, and didn't have one ready. But given the situation how would he have had time to get a vest, helmet and gloves when he didn't even have on shoes (for which I don't blame him.)?

Despite that, unless we've been fed a giant pile of shit, he's a genuine hero, stopping Kelley, despite being scared out of the socks he wasn't wearing. But that doesn't mean an analysis of preparation, including non-judgmental criticism, isn't appropriate. And the driver of the pickup, too, at ENORMOUS risk to his life as well, chased down the crazy shithead.
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
My son says: "Don't argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!" -- YT

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Re: I don't know Jack about Shotguns or Shotgun Ammo, so 410

#34 Post by Sarge » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:29 pm

Yankee.. I can't seem to pin you down.. sorry

You talk about your kid getting shot thru wall I assume it is home defense and I post accordingly

You say it isn't about home defense but being attacked on the street and I post accordingly

Now you say it isn't either... nevermind

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