looking into .308 and larger rifles

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I have been looking at getting a more powerful rifle for a while. I don't really have any need for one. I just like looking them up at the moment and always have this sensation that my AR is a bit anemic, if only because the rifle has next to no recoil because its an AR-15 firing cheap target loads. I've shot an SKS and an AK and can't stand the dust they make. I haven't shot any bolt or lever rifles honestly because after I qualified with a 12 gauge I didn't want another shoulder welt. This leaves me looking at semi-automatic rifles unless i can figure out how to manage the sharp recoil of mid-large caliber rifles, especially when using rented or borrowed arms that in my experience have been low on features.

My cursory glance of this subforum shows a lot of love for bolt guns and lever actions (I'll probably get a .357 lever carbine at some point though just to have one). I wonder if I am missing something or if I just love modern military rifles (and weirdly enough bullpups even if i haven't shot one, would like to find a place to try one out).

This whole post is a bit unfocused but thats me when i think about things that I don't really have a plan of action on and mostly just daydream about once every couple weeks.

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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Depending on yer domicile, a PTR-91 is a moderately-priced rifle choice.

As it is mostly modular, a plethora of accessories and upgrades are available.

They will like 146-150gr loads, and it uses a very reliable design.

Or, pop fer the real HK and be set fer life.

SR
"Oozing charm from every pore, he oiled his way around the floor."

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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There is not as much difference in recoil between bolt guns and autos as people seem to think. Usually the difference is that comparables (M1A or M1 Garand vs 03 Springfield for example) usually wind up with a pound more weight in the auto. Recoil difference between guns of the same weight in the same caliber is small.

If you're recoil shy, but want more oompf, the new M1A in 6.5 Creedmore might be just the thing. Less bite than the 308, but still way more to offer than the 223.

A side note picking up on something you mentioned: Cheap range ammo isn't usually loaded any softer than the good stuff.

The PTR/HK is a nice rifle, as long as you don't have to carry it anywhere or reload the cases.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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not a great sample size, but i own 2 rifles in 30-06, an m1(semiauto) and an m1917(bolt). i use the same ammo in both, and haven't noticed a substantial difference in recoil. i believe the m1 is a tad less, but not much. both are about 9 and 1/2 lbs, the m1917 is lighter by a few ounces.
Last edited by lurker on Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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I'll have to find a better class of range to scrounge brass from ;)

One thing to keep in mind about recoil is that full power calibers seem challenging when you aren't familiar with shooting that sort of gun. Don't get me wrong, while I'm notoriously insensitive to handgun recoil (my reputation exceeds the reality and might be bolstered in some quarters by sexist expectations), I am not a fan of heavy recoil in rifles. Most magnums? forget it! 45-70 leverguns make me very sad, because I'd like to be in to them. That said, I can shoot most 30-06 class rifles all day long with comfort because I know how to hold them rather than because I am tough.

I got beat up badly by my first Mosin, until someone kindly gave me some pointers that made it much less painful.

Folks who start shooting centerfire rifles with ARs and the like just haven't learned how to properly hold a rifle that recoils because they have never shot a rifle that recoils.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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obviously i need to try some non-trapdoor loads (in a non-trapdoor). i find 45-70 rather mild. not krag-mild, but not harsh.
moisins can be harsh, particularly the short models. enfield jungle carbines are definitely harsh. slugs out of a 12 ga are harsh.
marlene, i'm curious. how tall are you and what do you weigh, if you don't mind? physics. i'm 6'2" on a good day, weigh 200 lbs (180 before i quit smoking).
i had a good if perfunctory teacher, former unit armorer for uncle sam. he taught me to hold on firmly, seat buttstock firmly into shoulder and hold it there, let the recoil push, roll with it.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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I'm 5'8" 175 not a little girl, but hardly huge.

I agree with you on all of those particulars, except I find the heavy bullets (535 Postell) at even the middle of Trapdoor load levels to be a hair sharp in a gun as light as a Trapdoor. Full size Mosins don't bother me at all. The little ones and the Enfield carbines are definitely a handful. Slugs are nasty, but other 12 ga loads don't bug me at all.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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Marlene wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:21 pm Folks who start shooting centerfire rifles with ARs and the like just haven't learned how to properly hold a rifle that recoils because they have never shot a rifle that recoils.
I wish this was a slack chat so I could add all sorts of +1 reactions to this.

I feel like this is very true as well if you just do benchrest shooting a lot. In my very limited experience (I just started shooting this last summer) I find that in an effort to get into my rifle I tend to get into my rifle right on top of my collar bone on a bench rest. Which . . . sucks. On any of my non AR-15 pattern rifles its no biggie because the recoil doesn't punish you from holding the rifle where you shouldn't.

That said with practice things are not as bad, my friend who shoots probably half as much as I do at best is still struggling with his old milsurp rifles punishing him while I've learned some better technique. That doesn't mean they don't suck after testing 50 rounds of reloads though.

Rambling asside. I think it would help to know what you want to shoot? Personally I think my two pride and joys are my 1943 M1903a3 and my 1903 .30-40 Krag. The 03a3 is a bit more punishing but it has a scope and I can pick up factory ammo for cheapish. The Krag action is just a thing of pure beauty until you try to take the bolt out and clean it or you try and buy new ammo or brass for it.

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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I picked up a bolt action TC Compass in .308 not too long ago. It's an inexpensive rifle but I've rang steel at 300 yards with it barely sighted in. I'm in the process of dialing in the accuracy but out of the box it was better than minute of deer @100 yards with premium lead free factory ammo and my handloads were an improvement over the premium factory ammo. Thompson Center guarantees 1" MOA three-shot groups at 100 yds OOTB and the Compass delivered that on several of my groups first time at the range; I'm sure the only reason it wasn't consistent was my lack of skill with the rifle at the moment. Nevertheless, minute of deer was consistent.

This weekend I took some time to remount the scope with Burris Posi Align inserts and boresight it with a Bushnell collimator. I also adjusted the trigger using an aftermarket spring. Next week I'll zero it at the range using my handloads; Hornady FMJ-BT 150g bullets (half of them seated to SAAMI specs and half seated .030 off the lands), 38 grains of IMR 4895, and PRVI brass. I have no doubt that I'll be 1" MOA @100 yards.

I paid less than $200.00 for the rifle, new, using a rebate (https://www.smithandwessonrebates.com/#/home).

It's an excellent way to try out a bolt action without breaking the bank; less than the cost of a weekend outing to one of our many fine National Parks. I have no regrets.
Last edited by m1ckDELTA on Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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My issue has just been how sharp the recoil is out of a manual action rifle/shotgun, combined with short arms that make getting the weapon in the right spot rather difficult. I've fired an M1A and a AR-308 and have been fine, other than the weight and balance makes aiming while standing difficult (i can't get my arms into shape for some reason despite my gym trips). I would rather not have a resting only rifle, at least not as a the first full size caliber rifle.

I have looked at the PTRs and HKs, they seem reliable but front heavy, and heavy in general (but that seems to be a common theme among full caliber rifles). AR 308s in general seem... uncertain. You have low priced models with short barrels that make a lot of noise and flash but sometimes fail to feed or eject properly because of gas systems, all the way to high priced systems with adjustable gas, long heavy barrels, and long freefloat handguards that put the center of balance somewhere out of my comfortable reach.

I guess my main complaint with a lot of rifles is them being front heavy and hard to tuck in.

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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I suppose pin striped brass might last if annealed frequently. I find it hard to believe that it doesn't get work hardened quicker. I shot an HK91 once about 30 years ago and it threw the brass so far I could only find about 10% of the empties. My bolt guns on the other hand are tipped to side and eject the brass into the coffee can that I keep next too me.

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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Regarding reloading of CETME/H&K rifle brass...

It depends on the rifle it came out of. I have experience with 3 different rifles with fluted chambers, H&K 91/93, PTR, Sig STgW-57.

How re-usable the brass is depends on the depth and number of flutes in the chamber. The Sig had less flutes and they were very deep; it chewed up brass brutally. Even with that, I could always get at least one more load out of every case.

H&K's have deep fluting in comparison to the PTR's, and you can always get a few loads out of those cases provided you can find them (H&K's really throw brass far).

PTR's have barrels made by TC (Thompson Center) and they are fluted VERY shallow. As such, the brass comes out scored and lined, but not dented very much (except the case mouth). As such, you can get quite a few loads from brass fired through a PTR.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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Regarding your AR feeling "anemic", an AR doesn't have much felt recoil because of the straight back operating system. The bolt carrier, buffer and spring are all soaking up recoil force, and being straight back there's not much upward motion imparted compared to a traditional drop stock.

Also, .223 is not the only caliber available in an AR. I have an AR chambered in 6.8 SPC. The difference is the barrel, bolt and magazine. .223 it's not. Still not much recoil (it's an AR) but hits a lot harder than .223...you could just acquire ( or build) an upper in that caliber and give it a try.

Additionally, have you tried firing .223 or 5.56 in a bolt action? Completely different feeling.

Finally, don't be ashamed to use recoil pads. I use Limbsaver pads on my AR's and my 12 gauge double. My shoulder never hurts...

"In every generation there are those who want to rule well - but they mean to rule. They promise to be good masters - but they mean to be masters." — Daniel Webster

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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rascally wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:08 pm Regarding your AR feeling "anemic", an AR doesn't have much felt recoil because of the straight back operating system. The bolt carrier, buffer and spring are all soaking up recoil force, and being straight back there's not much upward motion imparted compared to a traditional drop stock.
:thumbup:
the AR was intentionally designed to minimize recoil and muzzle rise.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

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rascally wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:08 pm Regarding your AR feeling "anemic", an AR doesn't have much felt recoil because of the straight back operating system. The bolt carrier, buffer and spring are all soaking up recoil force, and being straight back there's not much upward motion imparted compared to a traditional drop stock.

Also, .223 is not the only caliber available in an AR. I have an AR chambered in 6.8 SPC. The difference is the barrel, bolt and magazine. .223 it's not. Still not much recoil (it's an AR) but hits a lot harder than .223...you could just acquire ( or build) an upper in that caliber and give it a try.

Additionally, have you tried firing .223 or 5.56 in a bolt action? Completely different feeling.

Finally, don't be ashamed to use recoil pads. I use Limbsaver pads on my AR's and my 12 gauge double. My shoulder never hurts...
I've been considering getting a .300 AAC upper (unless I get comfortable replacing barrels and gas systems) but i would have to find a good price for it, and also be willing to reload my own brass. A lot of these special bullets run the tab up a lot. either way its more money (and time and storage space) going into the rifle that i don't know if i'm ready to spend yet. :think: I don't have a reloading setup and I'm not sure im confident pressing together cartridges, especially if i have to cut and shape the casings, not to mention primers. I have to do more research.

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