looking into .308 and larger rifles

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WinterbornArms
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#51 Post by WinterbornArms » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:54 pm

FAL and PTR/HKs are awesome rifles but in my experience I agree they eat brass pretty regularly, most of the time they tend to be over gassed, especially CETME's. I am partial to automatics in .308 or greater as I have a personal Hate for the 5.56/.233, however have you considered intermediate chambers?
6.5 Grendel, 6.8 spc, .300 blackout etc? Or maybe something nice and heavy like a Yugo m76 maybe (Yugoslavian SVD clone.) in 8mm Mauser.


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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#52 Post by SubRosa » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:26 pm

CETME/HK rollerlocks aren't gas operated, so cannot be 'overgassed'

They are recoil operated, with a delayed opening provided by a set of rollers operating on a tangent path to effect the necessary delay.

Extraction of fired cases is enabled by a fluted chamber, floating the case with equal pressures, inside and outside.

If they feel too abrupt, the bolt gap is too small, and need a simple part replacement. That interval is usually in excess of 10,000 rounds.

The FN is indeed a gas-operated system with adjustable power.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#53 Post by BillMcD » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:10 pm

Marlene wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:33 pm
Well that makes sense. I’ve seen cops shoot, and adding any more skill requirements to the process definitely wouldn’t be good.
Eh, I don't know the reason most cops do what they do, I just know I wanted to help people but apparently helping people requires athletes capable of chasing down other athletes more than people who know how to communicate or aim. (there are many ways to help people but for some reason most of them are underpaid, overworked, and unappreciated, or require a PHD/MD).

I guess this is why some of the officers who can't make the SWAT team go join some PMC style security company... I would rather be a detective >.>

Anyways enough about the police. I've still got a space gun itch. Most of the manual firearms that interest me are still lever carbines or revolvers just because shiny. It's a bit vain but the old wood grain (or blank polymer or laminate) just don't interest me much. Also my flimsy arms mean i like lightweight guns or firearms that put the center of balance as close to me as possible :see_stars:

as for intermediate cartridges, ammo costs, my current inability to reload (I don't have the space), and lack of available parts put them out of the question for the time being. The only popular one around me is 300 blackout or the russian 7.62x39, one which is expensive still, and the other I don't know if there is any quality control.

With the HK/CETME or FAL, I hear a lot of strange things, including being front heavy, having poor accuracy, poor quality control when dealing with imports or century, and small number of options when it comes to substitute parts (not that i need a lego rifle like the ar-15, but prices go up a lot if you want an adjustable stock or rails)

This is a lot of hearsay for me with the HK/CETME and FAL though so I could use better info.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#54 Post by sikacz » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:58 am

I'd recommend you get several bolt action rifles, a .22LR and something in the .30-06, .308 or 7.62x54R variety and then a M1 Garand. While my experience with a Garand is minimal, I've probably shot and handled one less than five times my experience was that it handles, feels and shoots similar to a similar caliber old bolt action rifle. Why do I recommend old school, simple, you'll spend more time shooting and less time trying to improve your rifle. For a .22LR, I recommend a CZ 455 Ultra Lux or a CZ 455 Trainer. On bolt actions I've shot a Springfield M1903 is a good feeling rifle or you could look for a Finnish Mosin like a M39, skip the Russian variants or shorter carbines. Look for rifles with a long sight radius. The AR are in my view is too light to learn basics.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#55 Post by lurker » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:44 am

sikacz wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:58 am
I'd recommend you get several bolt action rifles, a .22LR and something in the .30-06, .308 or 7.62x54R variety and then a M1 Garand.
no, dammit, you do not recommend a garand to people we do not know! if they figure it out for themselves, all well and good, but there's not an infinite supply of them and one more for him is one less for us!
ok, ok, kidding. by all means, get yourself an older milsurp bolt gun, 99.9% of the time they're cheap and reliable. heck, get yourself a muzzleloader and be the envy of everyone at the range. men will swoon, women will offer to load for you. gracefully decline their offers. focus on the fundamentals for a while, then you'll be better able to appreciate what a semiauto can and cannot do for you.

eta: fixed typo.
Last edited by lurker on Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#56 Post by sikacz » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:20 am

lurker wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:44 am
sikacz wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:58 am
I'd recommend you get several bolt action rifles, a .22LR and something in the .30-06, .308 or 7.62x54R variety and then a M1 Garand.
no, dammit, you do not recommend a garand to people we do not know! if they figure it our for themselves, all well and good, but there's not an infinite supply of them and one more for him is one less for us!
ok, ok, kidding. by all means, get yourself an older milsurp bolt gun, 99.9% of the time they're cheap and reliable. heck, get yourself a muzzleloader and be the envy of everyone at the range. men will swoon, women will offer to load for you. gracefully decline their offers. focus on the fundamentals for a while, then you'll be better able to appreciate what a semiauto can and cannot do for you.
:roflmao: :beer2: Oops yeah, my Garand order is still sitting at a desk at the CMP....forget that recommendation. :whistle:
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#57 Post by Kayaker » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:29 am

m1ckDELTA wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:06 am
I'm more than a bit surprised by how many folks haven't shot a traditional rifle.
Shooting ranges have a whole different clientele than they used to. Used to be mostly hunting rifles ( and no, your AR or AK is NOT a hunting rifle! ) I've only fired a few Soviet military rifles and one AR-15 and honestly, meh, I'll keep my "old guy guns"

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#58 Post by sikacz » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:41 am

Kayaker wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:29 am
m1ckDELTA wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:06 am
I'm more than a bit surprised by how many folks haven't shot a traditional rifle.
Shooting ranges have a whole different clientele than they used to. Used to be mostly hunting rifles ( and no, your AR or AK is NOT a hunting rifle! ) I've only fired a few Soviet military rifles and one AR-15 and honestly, meh, I'll keep my "old guy guns"
Actually they can be. Valmet Petra or Hunter here, was an AK based hunting rifle. "Metsästyskivääri" means hunting rifle.
https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_Petra
You can translate the rest of it if you wish. Let's not propagate restrictionist ban rifles you don't think can be used for hunting propaganda here.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#59 Post by featureless » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:19 pm

lurker wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:43 am
m1ckDELTA wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:06 am
I'm more than a bit surprised by how many folks haven't shot a traditional rifle.
me too. :beer2: welcome to the age of the "assault" rifle. it has, after all, been 50 years (or more)
actually, my first gun was black powder, an 1861 springfield replica. 2nd gun was a garand, and 3rd was a 1911a1. AR? recoil? where? i don't see any recoil!
My first "rifle" was a lever pump pellet gun at around 12 (almost A Christmas Story). You had to break cheek weld to charge it. :lol: I'd shot my dad's 30-30 and 308 as a teen but my first adult-owned rifles were .223 semi autos.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#60 Post by shinzen » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:26 pm

Yeah, the 7.62x39 round is a perfectly adequate hunting round- similar to a 30/30 which has taken a ton of deer over the years. And an AR can easily switch between calibers and could also be used for hunting just as well. Just as you may not like it, let's not make things up about them.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#61 Post by Kayaker » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:39 pm

Shooting ranges have a whole different clientele than they used to. Used to be mostly hunting rifles ( and no, your AR or AK is NOT a hunting rifle! ) I've only fired a few Soviet military rifles and one AR-15 and honestly, meh, I'll keep my "old guy guns"
[/quote]
Actually they can be. Valmet Petra or Hunter here, was an AK based hunting rifle. "Metsästyskivääri" means hunting rifle.
https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_Petra
You can translate the rest of it if you wish. Let's not propagate restrictionist ban rifles you don't think can be used for hunting propaganda here.
[/quote]

Sure, you can hunt with any rifle. That doesn't make any rifle a hunting rifle. Magazine fed, semi automatic, pistol grip rifles get tiring to carry all day, the magazine capacity is unnecessary for hunting. I've killed many dear and 1 elk, never more than 3 rounds. Though a good AR can be made to be accurate, bolt actions are inherently accurate. That Valmet Petra in .308 weighs 8-1/2 lbs. It's no wonder why I don't ever see rifles like that in the woods. I'm not trying to spread propaganda, are you? This isn't Calguns, lets be real here.
P.S. have you also noticed that many bolt action rifles are now being marketed as "sniper rifles" To me this suggests that it is designed to kill people, even though it is essentially a hunting rifle, the marketing is twisted and the fact that these rifles are popular is disturbing to me. America used to have a tradition of self reliance and hunting is a natural extension of that tradition. The new gun culture is very different. It has nothing to do with hunting. I understand that the 2nd amendment isn't about hunting. Neither are weapons designed for military use, to pretend that they are is spreading propaganda, that includes if that comes from a manufacturer.
Last edited by Kayaker on Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#62 Post by m1ckDELTA » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:36 pm

BillMcD wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:10 pm
... my current inability to reload (I don't have the space),..


My space is very limited as well. My .308 reloading setup fits inside a Plano Shooter's Case that's kept in a hallway closet for storage. When it's time for a new batch I unload the case onto an Ikea Muddus table and get to work. The Lee Breech Lock Hand Press is key.


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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#63 Post by sikacz » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:17 pm

Edit for clarity.
Last edited by sikacz on Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#64 Post by sikacz » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:19 pm

I am being real. The reason the Valmet Petra is not here is the 1994 AWB. If I was hunting, I'd carry a Petra or any other 9lbs or 10lbs weapon. Weight has nothing to do why it's not seen much here. It was all about the previous effort at "assault weapon" banning. You stated very clearly that AK's were not made for hunting. I showed you that you were in error. You should thank me. As for propaganda here, I've been saying much of the same since I got here and I've been criticizing the "it's not for hunting" theme for a long time. Oh, and to be clear the second is not about hunting and target shooting. It's about self defense.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#65 Post by sikacz » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:22 pm

Back to the OP, sorry for the distraction. Get a bolt action!
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#66 Post by SubRosa » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:26 pm

Several friends of mine hunt deer successfully with HK91's.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#67 Post by WinterbornArms » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:39 pm

SubRosa wrote:CETME/HK rollerlocks aren't gas operated, so cannot be 'overgassed'

They are recoil operated, with a delayed opening provided by a set of rollers operating on a tangent path to effect the necessary delay.

Extraction of fired cases is enabled by a fluted chamber, floating the case with equal pressures, inside and outside.

If they feel too abrupt, the bolt gap is too small, and need a simple part replacement. That interval is usually in excess of 10,000 rounds.

The FN is indeed a gas-operated system with adjustable power.

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If you want to get technical the G3 is Roller delayed Blowback, the blowback portion is caused by the expansion of gas in the chamber, so no not technically gas operated, but has still has a lot to do with the operation of the action, so while the gas portion might not have direct regulation by say a gas tube, the propellant charge is the primary source for cycle of operation. Maybe not overgassed, but the rounds are "Over charged" I guess would be a better explanation.


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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#68 Post by lurker » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:57 pm

i think what it breaks down to is, a manually operated (bolt or otherwise) gun will teach you to get on target. a semiauto can, maybe, teach you to get back on target. or, it can teach you to spray ammo in the general direction. i see that all the time at the range.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#69 Post by m1ckDELTA » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:13 pm

sikacz wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:17 pm
Kayaker wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:39 pm
Shooting ranges have a whole different clientele than they used to. Used to be mostly hunting rifles ( and no, your AR or AK is NOT a hunting rifle! ) I've only fired a few Soviet military rifles and one AR-15 and honestly, meh, I'll keep my "old guy guns"
Actually they can be. Valmet Petra or Hunter here, was an AK based hunting rifle. "Metsästyskivääri" means hunting rifle.
https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_Petra
You can translate the rest of it if you wish. Let's not propagate restrictionist ban rifles you don't think can be used for hunting propaganda here.
Sure, you can hunt with any rifle. That doesn't make any rifle a hunting rifle. Magazine fed, semi automatic, pistol grip rifles get tiring to carry all day, the magazine capacity is unnecessary for hunting. I've killed many dear and 1 elk, never more than 3 rounds. Though a good AR can be made to be accurate, bolt actions are inherently accurate. That Valmet Petra in .308 weighs 8-1/2 lbs. It's no wonder why I don't ever see rifles like that in the woods. I'm not trying to spread propaganda, are you? This isn't Calguns, lets be real here.

the Valmet Petra here is the 1994 AWB. If I was hunting, I'd carry a Petra or any other 9lbs or 10lbs weapon. Weight has nothing to do why it's not seen much here. It was all about the previous effort at "assault weapon" banning. You stated very clearly that AK's were not made for hunting. I showed you that you were in error. You should thank me. As for propaganda here, I've been saying much of the same since I got here and I've been criticizing the "it's not for hunting" theme for a long time. Oh, and to be clear the second is not about hunting and target shooting. It's about self defense.
I'm going to chime in on this as well without sounding confrontational.

A hunting rifle for medium or large sized game doesn't usually hold more than 5 rounds; only one round should ever be needed for medium sized game (white tail). For those that want the best accuracy out of their hunting rifle, they will handload their own ammo which may require bullets seated longer than SAAMI specs, long enough to preclude using the magazine; this can't be done with any AR platform or any other semi-automatic.

I'm one of those people that actually doesn't subscribe to propaganda on either side. The AR15 serves a very important purpose that has little to do with hunting but everything to do with the Second Amendment. It is one of the most effective weapons civilians have at their disposal in order to defend against tyranny. It is meant to be used as a weapon should the government choose a course that is truly tyrannical; our government has not.

We in this country, in modern "America", have never experienced widespread long term tyranny outside of the civil rights abuses suffered by African Americans. Make no mistake about why the civil rights movement was as successful as it was, however (https://www.amazon.com/Negroes-Guns-Rob ... 1773230522). Outside of the civil rights abuses suffered by African Americans there have been a few moments that looked like our government was headed toward tyranny but they were short lived. We do not live under an oppressive regime, one need only to look toward North Korea to understand this. That is not to say, "It can't happen here." The only reason it has never happened here is the 2nd Amendment; the amendment that protects all the others.

The AR15 IS NOT a military weapon; it is not nor has never been issued to the U.S. military. Against the might of the U.S military the AR15 to is akin to a muzzleloader during the end of The Civil War. It's certainly better than nothing. It's not the only semi automatic chambered in .223/5.56 suitable for close to medium range battle, though.

I have no illusions about the purpose of the AR15 and if others would simply admit that the AR15 "is what it is" while simultaneously educating people about the real purpose behind the Second Amendment then, perhaps, neither would be misunderstood. In spite of the benefits of modularity, low recoil, easy field stripping, and others, the AR15 is still only a semi-automatic rifle dressed up to look like the rifles and carbines used by the military.

There are some former military and law enforcement personnel who choose the AR out of familiarity but there are far more of a particular generation that grew up seeing the AR in the hands of soldiers on the news and action heroes in movies and video games. There are certain features that make the AR a better choice for a civilian battle rifle/carbine than other semi-autos and that is what folks need to admit to. Don't candy coat the AR15 as anything other than a civilian battle rifle, analogous the muzzleloaders at the end of The Civil War, meant to defend the 2nd Amendment should that day come.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#70 Post by m1ckDELTA » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:21 pm

lurker wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:57 pm
i think what it breaks down to is, a manually operated (bolt or otherwise) gun will teach you to get on target. a semiauto can, maybe, teach you to get back on target. or, it can teach you to spray ammo in the general direction. i see that all the time at the range.
Here here. I was waiting to change out targets yesterday and glassed other people's targets. I was a bit dismayed at the number of shooters who seemed to be just burning through ammo; no sense of marksmanship. At that moment I noticed only one person other than I had a spotting scope. Unfortunately, he was mostly on target and I was not. I was trying to sight in a scope on my Henry H001 and not being very successful (I may have effed up the crown with an ill-fitting Bushnell collimator bore sight spud). I did start the day zeroing in my .308 Compass in five shots, however (new scope rings), so at least the day wasn't a total loss.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#71 Post by lurker » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:13 pm

m1ckDELTA wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:21 pm
noticed only one person other than I had a spotting scope.
more often than not, i'm the only one at the range with a spotting scope. i noticed it at our club shoot on the 10th because people were borrowing mine. i have a little tasco .22 rifle scope and a leapers AR carry-handle scope, use neither. the AR scope won't hold zero.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#72 Post by featureless » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:58 pm

m1ckDELTA wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:13 pm

The AR15 IS NOT a military weapon; it is not nor has never been issued to the U.S. military. Against the might of the U.S military the AR15 to is akin to a muzzleloader during the end of The Civil War. It's certainly better than nothing. It's not the only semi automatic chambered in .223/5.56 suitable for close to medium range battle, though.

I have no illusions about the purpose of the AR15 and if others would simply admit that the AR15 "is what it is" while simultaneously educating people about the real purpose behind the Second Amendment then, perhaps, neither would be misunderstood. In spite of the benefits of modularity, low recoil, easy field stripping, and others, the AR15 is still only a semi-automatic rifle dressed up to look like the rifles and carbines used by the military.
Apologies to OP, this is off topic and I want to respond to it. I agree, the AR is not intended for hunting but can and is used for such. I also want to point out that, while the gun grabbers continue on with the "that rifle isn't for hunting," they have been (mostly) unsuccessful when it comes to handgun bans, also not intended for hunting (with some exceptions, of course). So where did the notion that a firearm should be usable for hunting come from? Not the 2A, which obviously says nothing about hunting. Not from a utility justification since handguns have very little use in hunting. It's just another one of those logic gaps that the restrictionists don't notice. So why can't people accept the AR as "is what it is" when they accept handguns as such?

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#73 Post by BillMcD » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:19 pm

All of this debating about semi autos :see_stars:

I don't know how much of it is just comfort zone at this point and how much is training (trigger reset, staying on target/reaquiring a target, etc.) I do know that i thought about a 22lr bolt, and decided against it because of availability and got a ruger 10/22, which may have been a bad idea but i don't know for sure. I got a takedown to save space because i didn't have a full size storage locker at the time. I might get a 22lr bolt rifle eventually, just need someone to buy a slightly modified 10/22 takedown (it has sling swivel studs and some extra plastic to hold them in place) and find where i can buy a reasonable 22lr bolt rifle. They aren't very popular around where i live for some reason. I guess its because the big money is in overpriced junk and ammo waste.

The main point behind trying to find a 308 semi auto is to find a jack of all trades rifle that can pull multi-duty with hunting, defense, and long range target shooting. I should probably qualify that when i say hunting, I mean being able to deal with large and potentially dangerous game. I don't plan on doing it, but i like to be prepared if i miss the large boar/angry mother animal in the underbrush. I don't expect to be able to make an aimed shot for the head or spine in a panic and i don't trust a 5.56 or pistol to protect me from some big animal coming at me.

This all is highly improbable, maybe impossible, but that's basically it.

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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#74 Post by lurker » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:25 pm

the for hunting/not for hunting argument is only significant to those who erroneously believe, or more likely, want others to believe, that the second is about some imaginary right to hunt. which there is not. poof, there goes the underpinning of your right to keep and bear arms, and with it, your free state. it's very similar to the argument that the second was intended to help white racists keep slaves in line. what slaves? poof, no more need for the second.

bill/alan, do what you want. your guns are fine, it's up to you to decide what you want to learn from them, and to practice it. you can do that with any firearm.
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Re: looking into .308 and larger rifles

#75 Post by Kayaker » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:51 pm

I wasn't saying that the 2nd amendment is about hunting. My comment was about the change in gun/hunting culture and my personal opinion that the shift from hunting to offensive weaponry is disturbing and unhealthy. But, that's just my opinion. and, to the OP, try a few lever action and bolt action rifles, you might like it. Like you, I'm looking for a .357 Mag lever rifle. Not that I need one, it just looks like fun to me.

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