BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#76 Post by DispositionMatrix » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:02 pm

highdesert wrote:
DispositionMatrix wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:25 pm
highdesert wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:36 am
Ardern has to proceed cautiously, she leads a minority government led by the Labour Party.
Of the 3.9 million New Zealanders of gun-licensing age, 238,000 — 6 percent — have a firearm license, according to GunPolicy.org. In the United States, according to a Pew study from 2017, three out of 10 Americans report owning at least one firearm.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/16/worl ... -laws.html
I would not be so sure. I suspect most that 238,000 are rather amenable to whatever ban the ruling class wants to impose under the pretense of ensuring safety.
The is a very emotional time, the next campaign could be very different. We'll see how the opposition National Party votes on any new gun laws.
Perhaps. Different mindset over there.

In an NPR story, the proprietor of a New Zealand gun store said he has voluntarily suspended sales of AR-15s and mags until he receives instructions from authorities. This was in response to a run on them due to the pending ban.

In addition the gun seller said he was no longer selling "high-capacity" magazines, which according to him are already illegal to insert into rifles.

Another point of interest was the American reporter describing "high-capacity" magazines as, paraphrasing, magazines that enable a firearm to exceed the number of rounds for which it was designed. I will be looking for that one in Democratic/media bloc talking points going forward. When I get a chance I will fish for the NPR link.

ETA link:
'Shocked' New Zealand Rifle Club Revokes Membership Of Mosque Shootings Suspect
Taylor says he has had to turn down shoppers asking for high-capacity magazines, which enable guns to shoot far more bullets than they are designed for.

"Anyone can buy those magazines. They're just not allowed to put them in their gun. But if they do, what can we do?" Taylor says.

"So we've pulled the sales of those. And we've pulled the sales of all AR platform guns until we hear further from police or the government as to what we are supposed to do."
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#77 Post by eelj » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:48 am

Marlene wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:46 pm
Bbbbut isn’t the “alt left” just as bad? Didn’t I hear a lot of that on this forum? Aren’t Anti-fascists the real fascist thought police or some shit like that?
I think the problem with the modern day liberal is that they are more afraid of socialists than they are of fascists. Antifa has a lot of socialists in its movement.

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#78 Post by DispositionMatrix » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:08 am

As mentioned previously, different mindset.
Christchurch terror attack: Kiwis begin to voluntarily return their semi-automatic rifles
He took to Twitter to urge other semi-automatic rifle owners to do the same.

"Until today I was one of the New Zealanders who owned a semi-automatic rifle. On the farm they are a useful tool in some circumstances, but my convenience doesn't outweigh the risk of misuse," he posted.

"We don't need these in our country. We have make sure it's #NeverAgain."

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#79 Post by max129 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:26 am

............. 10 8 6 4 2 0 -2 -4 -6 -8 -10 .............

[far left].................................................[far right]

If social/political position is plotted along a scale where "far left" is a 10 and "far right" is a -10 anyone with a score magnitude greater than 8 in either dimension tends to dismiss the rest of the spectrum. So "Yes" very far left wants just as much "control" as very far right.

It's kind of funny how people react to the word "socialism".

In my experience, we have had a multi-century experiment in what human endeavors are best managed by a free market, which are best managed in a highly regulated market, and which are centralized/socialized.

I have not heard a lot of clamor from Libertarians to turn over air traffic control to the "free market". And it is part of the Libertarian credo that the military and the courts "must" be centralized.

An example that everyone on the forum has likely lived through is the birth and growth of both search engines and social media. In the beginning, anyone who says that Alta Vista or early Google should have been regulated is full of it. What was there to regulate? Who knew enough to regulate?

And yet, in the span of 23 years (for Google) and a mere 12 years (for Facebook), these sectors have grown to the point of needing serious regulation - at least in the personal privacy realm and likely far more.

Anyone here want to "deregulate" Banking? Read the history of unregulated banking and you will change your mind.

There are many very socialist persons on this forum; I have not seen a cry out to regulate Brownells.

This experiment of ours is messy - it is currently an actual overall mess. Thus the legitimate pressure on Democrats to propose a better higher education system, a better healthcare system and more.

One sign that an area needs to be "regulated" or even "centralized/socialized" is the degree to which it can be run in a free market without too much corruption or monopoly.

Semi conductors and Operating systems were all the rage for "regulation" back when the "WinTel" monopoly supposedly existed. And there were some significant anti-trust actions, but mostly minor skirmishes. The market corrected the monopoly quite handily. Between AMD, ARM and Linux the monopoly looks pretty weak today.

Even communist countries manage to allow farmer's markets and transportation for hire.

Healthcare? A free market failure in most of the world. Customers lack knowledge and market power. In the 1980s an 1990s we were trying to have "managed health care" in the United States. Basically, in an attempt to avoid national health care, we adopted a lightly regulated free market solution for all healthcare. What a failure. We have the highest worldwide healthcare costs by about double and 80% of the average rich country results. And be careful what you wish for as a solution. Since healthcare is almost 20% of our economy, any attempt to control costs will clearly have an impact on GDP. This single fact will drive most political motions on healthcare. You simply cannot lower costs drastically in a sector without a GDP impact when the sector is 1/5 the economy.

Financial Services? Interesting study area. As someone who at times wrote math code for financial services firms, I had front row seats in the early 80s to see that the financial services space was inventing new instruments partly because the new ones were thus far unregulated. When the CBOE opened, the total regulatory oversight fit in a thin 3 ring binder. And the new instruments always cause a melt-down -- always.

[Back on topic]

People who shoot up Mosques and Synagogues and AME Churches are not in any way warriors in the Free Market vs Centralized/Socialized spectrum. They are angry elves who have worked themselves up into a mental frenzy. They adopt the clothing of left/right politics, but they are not political.

It appears that humans are very receptive to self-brainwashing. They find some area of (initial) "interest" to themselves (hate to say it, but there are semi-legitimate gateway concepts into all the extreme groups.) Then they consume and obsessively consume media and ideas with an ever narrowing point of view. The people around these folks often note some change in them, but in the end, many close acquaintances and even family claim they had no idea the person would go kill others.

In the early 1980s, I wrote device drivers for the BBN Butterfly. I was a core code contributor to BSD 4.1 (networking stack). I have at least some street cred in helping evolve the Internet. We really believed that the Internet would be a great end result; funded by DARPA or not. As it turns out, we way underestimated the benefit of the Internet. But we also seriously underestimated the extent to which it would be a vehicle for the development of terrorism (never hear a single debate within the W3C or the IETF on the topics).

Now with the debate about suppressing the (very evil) video by the latest nut-job, we are handing the keys to media control over to the Internet giants. People on this forum are justifiably concerned that New Zealand will impose draconian gun laws. Perhaps of more concern: there is a worldwide effort to make sure that Google and Facebook and Twitter can take down and stop propagation of any terrorist content within minutes (not hours.)

OK, good luck with that. Once that is all in place, how will the rest of us control what is considered "MUST REMOVE" content. Child Porn, Terrorist Videos: Check. Watch out for what else makes it onto the "MUST SUPPRESS" list. The uprising in Egypt in 2011 could easily get classified as "Terrorist" activity.

And SOME of this is exactly what Terrorist want! They weaponize our freedoms. Freedom to own arms, freedom to express almost any point of view, freedom to move about and form groups, freedom to publish. This is what the hate groups are attacking. The excuses they use (Muslims) are just that. They hate most of the rest of the world. It is not politics; it is pathologic.
Last edited by max129 on Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#80 Post by K9s » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:39 pm

Max, they are already removing a lot of firearms videos. They demonetized all the gun channels on YouTube, as far as I know. Let's see how FB handles this, but I agree that they will handle it in a corrupt way. Is there any wonder that splinter chat/vid/tweet sites arise? At what point do those get suppressed based on opposition to the administration or fossil fuels? If you think that is far-fetched, then why did Kellyanne Conway describe the NZ shooter not as a white supremacist but as more likely an eco-terrorist?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... o-fox-news
“Unlike like most mass shootings, this man came with pre-receipts, if you will,” Conway said during a Monday morning interview on Fox & Friends. “He put out a 70-page manifesto, and I guess everybody scoured it, searched for Donald Trump’s name, and there it is, one time. But he also said he aligns closely with the ideology of China. He said he’s not a conservative, he’s not a Nazi, I think he referred to himself as an eco-naturalist or an eco-fascist. But people should read the entire — in its entirety.”
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#81 Post by DispositionMatrix » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:16 pm

max129 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:26 am
People on this forum are justifiably concerned that New Zealand will impose draconian gun laws.
"Concerned" is likely an overstatement in that it directly affects the less than 5 million people who live in New Zealand, the vast majority of whom don't seem to be big on firearm ownership anyway.

The worst of it for us is that people here who claim no one is going to take anyone's firearms in the US are touting the New Zealand leadership's swift verbal commitment to something entailing taking people's firearms.

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#82 Post by Eris » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:20 pm

K9s wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:39 pm
Max, they are already removing a lot of firearms videos. They demonetized all the gun channels on YouTube, as far as I know. Let's see how FB handles this, but I agree that they will handle it in a corrupt way. Is there any wonder that splinter chat/vid/tweet sites arise? At what point do those get suppressed based on opposition to the administration or fossil fuels? If you think that is far-fetched, then why did Kellyanne Conway describe the NZ shooter not as a white supremacist but as more likely an eco-terrorist?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... o-fox-news
“Unlike like most mass shootings, this man came with pre-receipts, if you will,” Conway said during a Monday morning interview on Fox & Friends. “He put out a 70-page manifesto, and I guess everybody scoured it, searched for Donald Trump’s name, and there it is, one time. But he also said he aligns closely with the ideology of China. He said he’s not a conservative, he’s not a Nazi, I think he referred to himself as an eco-naturalist or an eco-fascist. But people should read the entire — in its entirety.”
He did describe himself as an "eco-fascist" who admires China, but he also espoused white nationalism. Even quoted the "14 words" statement.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#83 Post by K9s » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:48 pm

Environmental protection doesn't really fit China. Hatred of Muslims? Fascism? More like China. I don't know how eco-fascist really fits into any world view outside of Faux News.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#84 Post by featureless » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:06 pm

K9s wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:48 pm
Environmental protection doesn't really fit China. Hatred of Muslims? Fascism? More like China. I don't know how eco-fascist really fits into any world view outside of Faux News.
Yeah, eco-fascist isn't really a thing. If so, he'd be chaining himself to a redwood instead.

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#85 Post by YankeeTarheel » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:14 pm

The Fux Noise spin machine in with the WH is trying to frame this clearly racist, neo-nazi as either an eco-terrorist or a bizarre conspiracy by the Left to smear the Right (Straight out of Limbaugh's ass hole he calls his mouth).
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#86 Post by DispositionMatrix » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:32 pm

Gun owners in New Zealand brace for big changes to their right to carry
Carry for self-defense already is disallowed in New Zealand.
“I totally agree there should be a gun debate, but today is not the day,” Tipple said. “We are not a country of emotional responses, we are a country with laws (and) what we are doing is legal.”

New Zealand gun owners point out that it is exactly the loophole Tipple brought up – purchasing larger magazines – that enabled Tarrant’s shooting spree.
5-rounders could have achieved the same tragic result, especially with no one returning fire.
Four inquiries have been undertaken by government in recent years. A 1997 review recommended that all guns should be registered and that the government institute a full buyback of all military-style assault weapons, similar to what was done in Australia.

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#87 Post by featureless » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:43 pm

The 2002 Beltway sniper attacks killed 17 over ten months in the D.C. area. While a 5.56 semi auto was used, magazine capacity wasn't an issue since they were aimed single shots. These guys successfully terrorized the area for ten months, one random shot at a time. I don't recall a single serial killer using a high capacity magazine and they most certainly instill fear and terror in their area of operation (most don't even use a gun, preferring to be more intimately involved with the victim's death). People forget there are lots of different ways to kill and terrorize, most of which are not dependent on magazine capacity or "weapons of war".

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#88 Post by DispositionMatrix » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:43 pm

Audio:
Semiautomatic Weapons Have No Place Here, New Zealand Parliament Member Says
Rachel Martin talks to Nicky Wagner, a member of New Zealand's Parliament, about last week's mass shootings at two mosques in Christchurch. There are calls for gun law reforms.

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#89 Post by Bisbee » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:48 pm

Well done Max. Excellent thoughts and pulling together of disparate lines of reasoning. I agree that this shooter could have just as easily called himself a (fill in the blank)-ist as create new definitions for himself that sounds more sexy than simply Authoritarianism. These people are clever at mental gymnastics but when it comes down to it all of it is self-serving and rather masturbatory (ego stroking). All the evil villains in the superhero stories do the same so how different are their manifestos from half a comic book series?

Yes, I also agree, Max, that handing the keys of content regulation to Google and Facebook is yet another marker of the continued erosion of Democracy. If right now we think “regulatory capture” was bad for people in the case of Boeing with the 737max, what do we call Putin’s gift of a Turnip presidency? Propaganda has as much become a tool of terrorists as a bomb. And the media companies enslaved to quarterly profits (like CNN who outright said Turnip may be bad for America but was fantastic for CNN) cannot be trusted to regulate something the Founding Fathers said was fundamental for a well functioning democracy: accurate information.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#90 Post by Wino » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:37 pm

What's with the "MAGA Forever" written on his hand in court video???? If it walks like a duck................................!!

https://www.foxnews.com/us/reputed-gamb ... ogans-hand


OOPS!! MY bad - getting killers mixed up!! Carry on.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#91 Post by Eris » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:46 pm

Yeesh. How can an Australian in New Zealand say "Make America Great Again" with a straight face?
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#92 Post by Wino » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:48 pm

Eris wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:46 pm
Yeesh. How can an Australian in New Zealand say "Make America Great Again" with a straight face?
My bad. See my previous modified post!!
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#93 Post by Eris » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:50 pm

Wino wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:48 pm
Eris wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:46 pm
Yeesh. How can an Australian in New Zealand say "Make America Great Again" with a straight face?
My bad. See my previous modified post!!
Ah. Still, I've recently seen pictures of right wingers in NZ displaying the MAGA slogan anyway. I think that outside the US "MAGA" now is just code for white supremacy. It is for some people inside the US too, but it's not universal here.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#94 Post by K9s » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:56 pm

Eris wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:50 pm
Ah. Still, I've recently seen pictures of right wingers in NZ displaying the MAGA slogan anyway. I think that outside the US "MAGA" now is just code for white supremacy. It is for some people inside the US too, but it's not universal here.
Yet.
If DJT wins reelection, I expect a more open call to white supremacy.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#95 Post by HuckleberryFun » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:01 pm

K9s wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:56 pm
Eris wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:50 pm
Ah. Still, I've recently seen pictures of right wingers in NZ displaying the MAGA slogan anyway. I think that outside the US "MAGA" now is just code for white supremacy. It is for some people inside the US too, but it's not universal here.
Yet.
If DJT wins reelection, I expect a more open call to white supremacy.
If he wins things will get ugly. If he loses things will get ugly.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#96 Post by K9s » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:21 pm

HuckleberryFun wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:01 pm
K9s wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:56 pm
Eris wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:50 pm
Ah. Still, I've recently seen pictures of right wingers in NZ displaying the MAGA slogan anyway. I think that outside the US "MAGA" now is just code for white supremacy. It is for some people inside the US too, but it's not universal here.
Yet.
If DJT wins reelection, I expect a more open call to white supremacy.
If he wins things will get ugly. If he loses things will get ugly.
If he loses, things will get better sooner, I hope. 8 years of MAGA will set civil rights back nearly a century.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#97 Post by YankeeTarheel » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:28 pm

Eris wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:46 pm
Yeesh. How can an Australian in New Zealand say "Make America Great Again" with a straight face?
And don't forget: As an Australian in New Zealand--he was raving about damned foreigners!
I hate to be vindictive but I hope he faces the Dahmer sanction in prison.
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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#98 Post by CDFingers » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:29 am

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#99 Post by DispositionMatrix » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:37 am

Erdogan weighs in.
New Zealand to 'confront' Erdogan over Christchurch mosque shooting remarks
Erdogan said the massacre in Christchurch was part of a broader attack on Turkey and Islam. He also warned anti-Muslim Australians that they would be sent back in coffins like their grandfathers at Gallipoli.

New Zealand's foreign minister will visit Turkey to "confront" Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan over his comments on an anti-Muslim massacre in Christchurch, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said Wednesday.

Erdogan has vowed to make the shooter pay if New Zealand fails to do so. He has also showed alleged footage of the shooting at campaign rallies ahead of local elections scheduled for March 31 and told his supporters that the killings were part of an attack on Turkey and Islam.

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Re: BBC: Active Shooter in Christchurch NZ

#100 Post by DispositionMatrix » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:33 am

A former attendee of the mosque was killed in a US drone strike in 2013.
A Kiwi lad's death by drone
Jones was killed alongside Australian Christopher Havard, whose parents said he was introduced to radical Islam at the Al-Noor mosque in Christchurch.

Mosque leaders confirmed Havard stayed there and studied in 2011, but denied radical teaching took place. But a man who attended a converts' weekend at the mosque 10 years ago said a visiting speaker from Indonesia talked about violent jihad and plenty shared his views. "Most of the men were angry with the moral weakness of New Zealand. I would say they were radical."
They have taken names like Abu Hamzah and Abdul Hakeem. One has kept his old name - Nathan Jones. He is the younger brother of Daryl Jones, also known as Muslim bin John, killed by an American drone last year. Nathan Jones and his friends set up the centre to promote Salafism, a sect which follows strict Islam as practised in Mohammed's time. Some Salafi followers in Western countries espouse jihad but Jones and his friends denounce violence. Flyers in the window proclaim that "terrorists kill Muslims and non-Muslims indiscriminately".

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