Long Range Shooter

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Bullitt68
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Long Range Shooter

#1 Post by Bullitt68 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:59 pm

Opinions on the last three in this article. https://www.ammoland.com/2016/07/best-l ... z5o8HZmATx
I like long range plinking but I'm not a competitor. Got a beautiful Zestava Mark X 25-06 but really want to be able to send more lead down range just as fast or faster and further. For my next acquisition I'd Love me a Remington 700 or Ruger American, not necessarily any military type, just a good ole bolt. But it's the caliber that is hard to decide. The 6.5 Creedmore seems a little light on lead. I need to stop reading these articles.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#2 Post by Marlene » Thu May 16, 2019 10:19 pm

Recoil makes good shooters bad. More shooting makes ok shooters good. Thats a couple strong arguments for the 6.5.

Others are about guns: the guns you're thinking about in factory configurations will be outright brutal in the 300 or 338. Those are great calibers but they need suitably big guns. Used lightweight 300 Win hunting rifles are reasonably priced and easy to find for a reason; they hurt and are very hard to shoot well. It isnt just a question of pain, but of controlling the gun under recoil.

Given the rifles you're looking at, you probably aren't made of money. The 338 and even the 300 can get pricey to shoot, even for reloaders.

I think the 6.5 has it on all counts. It even drifts in the wind less than the 300.

I can tag 6" circles at 750 yards with my friend's 6.5 Grendel AR pretty easily once we have the dope for the day. The Creedmoor shoots even flatter with less drift. It's pretty much the perfect cartridge for reaching out without stepping up to 16 pound $2000 guns.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#3 Post by SubRosa » Thu May 16, 2019 11:41 pm

Listen to the wise woman Marlene.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#4 Post by senorgrand » Fri May 17, 2019 12:26 am

You might be able to find an affordable 6.5 with a bull barrel and a heavy stock, which would help absorb recoil.

Savage might be a good catalog to peruse...
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#5 Post by senorgrand » Fri May 17, 2019 12:34 am

Ruger American Hunter looks good. Weighs over 9 lbs without a scope.

https://www.ruger.com/products/american ... 26983.html

Six bills.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/812431289
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#6 Post by offensivename » Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 am

I agree with the above. I went 6.5x55 for my precision gun, but I'm into silly things like that and I already handloaded the cartridge for my Swedish Mausers. 6.5 Creedmoor is pretty much the same thing and is a great cartridge and much more available in both rifles and ammo.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#7 Post by spara » Fri May 17, 2019 7:16 am

I have a Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. It's a 1 MOA gun out of the box and hitting a 10" plate at 400 yds is easy peasy. Ammo is reasonable, I've picked up 200 rnds of Hornady ELD for around $150. Unfortunately, my reloads aren't as accurate as the Hornady rounds yet.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#8 Post by wooglin » Fri May 17, 2019 8:51 am

spara wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:16 am
I have a Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor.
Like so?

https://www.greatplainsguns.com/elementor-320/

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#9 Post by Bullitt68 » Fri May 17, 2019 9:48 am

Good suggestions. Wondering what the max grain weight is for the creedmore?
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#10 Post by offensivename » Fri May 17, 2019 10:43 am

I've never seen store bought stuff heavier than 147gr. My Hornady reload book has a load for 160gr round nose though.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#11 Post by Bullitt68 » Fri May 24, 2019 12:07 pm

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#12 Post by eelj » Mon May 27, 2019 9:45 am

I think the Creedmore is just about perfect, a true do anything round. A handloader could easily make it shine not only for precision shooting but in the game fields as well.

I would consider it the perfect first rifle. I have a friend who is lucky enough to have a 1000 yd air strip on his farm, he uses it for long range shooting, his initial reaction to his Ruger precision that he bought a year ago was that he was considering selling his Barrett 50 cal.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#13 Post by max129 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:19 am

Marlene said:

Recoil makes good shooters bad.

Thank you for saying this. I totally agree. I have tried for years to overcome the negative effects of heavier recoil, but I just shoot better when recoil is not excessive.

I talked to a cowboy action shooter and he said it is well know in the CAS groups that loading their rounds lighter lets them focus on the other fundamentals.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#14 Post by spara » Mon May 27, 2019 12:04 pm

max129 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:19 am

I talked to a cowboy action shooter and he said it is well know in the CAS groups that loading their rounds lighter lets them focus on the other fundamentals.
Most competition shooters that reload typically load only enough powder to meet the minimum requirements allowed by their discipline because it allows you to shoot faster and stay on target.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#15 Post by Marlene » Mon May 27, 2019 12:29 pm

I have a couple of target pistols that literally won't function with the standard full-power version of their cartridge. Light loaded ammo only.

I'm a little bit notoriously recoil insensitive. I really don't mind most of the old battle rifles most people think hurt badly. I definitely don't mind 44 mag and the like. That said, while I can shoot itsy bitsy groups with 30-06 pretty reliably, I had a moderate weight rifle in 300 win mag that I could never manage properly.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#16 Post by eelj » Mon May 27, 2019 12:38 pm

One thing about the Ruger creedmore that puzzles me is the loudner on the end of the barrel. Why would one be necessary?

It must be fashionable, all of the cool kids use them.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#17 Post by Bullitt68 » Mon May 27, 2019 2:38 pm

eelj wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:38 pm
One thing about the Ruger creedmore that puzzles me is the loudner on the end of the barrel. Why would one be necessary?

It must be fashionable, all of the cool kids use them.
Heavy-contour (.850" at the muzzle) barrel features a Ruger Precision® Rifle Hybrid Muzzle Brake to effectively reduce recoil while minimizing noise and blast to the sides of the shooter.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#18 Post by Bullitt68 » Mon May 27, 2019 2:39 pm

Bullitt68 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:38 pm
eelj wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:38 pm
One thing about the Ruger creedmore that puzzles me is the loudner on the end of the barrel. Why would one be necessary?

It must be fashionable, all of the cool kids use them.
What Ruger says:
Heavy-contour (.850" at the muzzle) barrel features a Ruger Precision® Rifle Hybrid Muzzle Brake to effectively reduce recoil while minimizing noise and blast to the sides of the shooter.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#19 Post by K9s » Thu May 30, 2019 1:54 pm

Was following this because I have been considering 308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor. Cheap steel plinking 308 is pretty cheap by comparison and I don't have much reason or land to shoot 1000 yards. Trying to talk myself out of the AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor, but it is getting more difficult to justify 308.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#20 Post by Marlene » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:18 pm

if you're gonna buy the cheapest ammo you can get for a rifle, get the ruger PCC and shoot 9
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#21 Post by K9s » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:37 pm

Marlene wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:18 pm
if you're gonna buy the cheapest ammo you can get for a rifle, get the ruger PCC and shoot 9
I get your point. I already have 9mm and 40 carbines.

I used to shoot 7.62x54R. I bought my first Mosin 91/30 five years ago at $139 and ammo was cheap, too. The cheapest ammo is about the same or more as cheap 308, and those rifles are now harder to find. I guess I should just look at the 6.5 Creedmoor.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#22 Post by offensivename » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:53 pm

I think I agree with Marlene on this one. If you're thinking of long range shooting, plinking with cheap russian .308 sounds . . . not fun at all. I was shooting reloads with my tikka at 100 yards and got 1.5 MOA groups and was pretty bummed. I couldn't imagine what worse quality ammo at longer range would look like.

A point of reference would be my 6.5 grendel. With reloads its a sub MOA gun, with Wolf steel cased 'plinking' ammo it is nowhere near that. I bought maybe $100 of that ammo and haven't shot it all yet. It turns out shooting shitty, inaccurate ammo through a gun you want to be accurate is not fun at all.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#23 Post by 308Scout » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:14 am

Bullitt68 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:59 pm
Opinions on the last three in this article. https://www.ammoland.com/2016/07/best-l ... z5o8HZmATx
I like long range plinking but I'm not a competitor.
I am not sure our opinions matter for the most part. each of three are ideal for different ranges, making it more a matter of matching the round to the ranges you intend to shoot. So it is actually more of a question of what distances you think of as long range. what your experience at long range is. how often and where you have to shoot etc.

however since you asked for an opinion, here is my for what it's worth.

If you think of long range as over 600 and beyond, but do not really have anywhere to shoot on a regular basis that is over 1400 yards, then the only one of the three that makes any sense for you is the 6.5 creedmoor. If you think long range starts at 1600 yards, have the money for, and place to shoot regularly that is over 1600 out to at least 2000 yards and maybe a little further, then and only then does the 338 lupua make any sense to look into, let alone buy.
eelj wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:45 am
I think the Creedmore is just about perfect, a true do anything round.
respectfully while it has a lot to offer, it's not anywhere close to a anything round. There is no such thing as a do anything round, but we come close with the 30-06.
max129 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:19 am
Marlene said:

Recoil makes good shooters bad.

Thank you for saying this. I totally agree. I have tried for years to overcome the negative effects of heavier recoil, but I just shoot better when recoil is not excessive.

I talked to a cowboy action shooter and he said it is well know in the CAS groups that loading their rounds lighter lets them focus on the other fundamentals.
A couple thoughts....

1. A big part of recoil getting in the way of shooting well is shooting improperly. I didn't really get this until I started shooting scout rifles and got to try out a Kimber Mountain Ascent. fundamentals and correct mounting of the rifle become very important. if you do it right, felt recoil is reduced. not eliminated, just a reduction in the sensation.

2. While eliminating or reducing variables such as recoil makes sense at various learning stages...if you are going to use a rifle for real world purposes, that means ammunition that can get the job done, which means recoil comes back into the picture. Which means you need to factor it back into your training and skills development.

3. sometimes what the gamers do, depending on your goals, may not be the model to follow.

K9s wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:54 pm
Was following this because I have been considering 308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor. Cheap steel plinking 308 is pretty cheap by comparison and I don't have much reason or land to shoot 1000 yards. Trying to talk myself out of the AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor, but it is getting more difficult to justify 308.
Actually the 308 can still be the right choice...even the best choice. it all just depends. However, if you want a 6.5, get a 6.5. In my opinion the only justification needed at the end of the day is "I want one".

Here is why I am sticking with the 308 for now.

1. I don't currently have the time to go places I would be able to shoot past 100 yards. at this distance there is nothing the 6.5 brings to the table that would justify me converting.
2. barrel life, 308 has the 6.5 creedmoor beat in this department
3. a wide, wide range of bullets and powders to choose from
4. for me, the recoil of the 308 isn't a problem.
5. it is currently outside my financial means to change. it's more than just buying a rifle. there is reloading components and equipment to factor in.
6. 308 hasn't stopped reaching out successfully to 1000 yards just because the 6.5 showed up.
7. when passing 200 yards, the ballistics of the 308 force you to learn things that 6.5 doesn't. Making me a better shooter.
8. wide, wide, wide selection of factory ammunition and surplus ammunition.
9. until I am regularly shooting past 600 yards, the cost to convert and ballistics do not justify even giving it half a thought.
10. even IF I start shooting past 600 yards I may not change over. just shooting for my own enjoyment given all or some of the other 9 reasons still may not to me justify converting.

who knows, when I go to rebarrel I might change my mind because "I want to" and all other factors be damned.

what your rifle is chambered it is personal. It should be something that is a mix of what caught your fancy and what is appropriate for the type shooting you are interested in. For me, today, that is still the 308. for "you" it might be something else. but tomorrow....who knows.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

#24 Post by Bullitt68 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:48 am

Dang that was a GREAT post in favor of the .308!
Never shot one. So I can't say either way about it vs the 6.5 creedmor.
I have owned a .270 Win bolt and a 30-06 Loved it.
Going back to my original post though, I think I may just stick with my Interarms Zestava 25-06.
The Creedmore can't touch it.

https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/25-0 ... creedmoor/

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Last edited by Bullitt68 on Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

#25 Post by 308Scout » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:24 am

Bullitt68 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:48 am
Dang that was a GREAT post in favor of the .308!
Thanks.

The 6.5 Creedmoor does bring some really good things to the table, and really shines in competition. Which is what it was designed to do. It also can perform in the field as a hunting round far better than many Americans will give it credit for. And if you are bit on the recoil shy end of the spectrum, it might make more sense to go with a 6.5 than a 308 even IF you aren't into competition. you should enjoy what you shoot and if a 308 is uncomfortable, you shouldn't be shooting it. find something you enjoy and is comfortable too shoot.

But there is almost a "lemmings" effect when a new cartridge comes on the scene that becomes popular in competition and god forbid the military picks it up, where people suddenly act like all previous cartridges suddenly stop working and if you aren't "drinking the coolaid" there must be something wrong with you. you clearly don't know what your talking about etc. That is what I am arguing against. people should fit their choice of cartridge to what they are setting out to do, are interested in etc. (note, if your financial resources allow for spontaneous purchases out of curiosity...then none of this applies to you)

But X despite all it's popularity might not make sense when you factor in all the variables for your shooting interest. When I stopped and really thought about what type of shooting I did, what I was really interested in. What purpose built rifles really got my interest, what ranges were practical for my interest, and what cartridge fit all that the best. for me, 308 made the most sense. For me the fact that ballistically 6.5 out performs the 308 past 600 and at 1000 and beyond is irrelevant. The type rifles I am interested in aren't meant to shoot out to 1000 yards, so that the 6.5 does 1000 yards better than 308 is a so what, who cares fact. And if I was to out of curiosity try my hand at 1000 yard shooting and all I had is a 308...so what that I have to learn a little bit more to accomplish it, or that I have to add a few more clicks. for me those factors are irrelevant since I am not shooting under time constraints trying to win a competition. German Salazar's articles on using 30-06 for 1000 and beyond really changed my thinking about some of this stuff. to bad his articles aren't on the internet anymore.

The rifles I am interested in shine in 600 or less. I am interested in more carbine length, general purpose/practical rifles. I am not yet sold that the 6.5 creedmore can bring to the table more positives than 308 can in this application. Same goes for a typical hunting rifle for someone who can only have one and is interested in a wide range game. In this last case...sensitivity to recoil in my mind is the deciding factor. And if recoil is a factor, then it's not a choice between 308 and 6.5, it's trying to choose between .243, 7mm-08, and 6.5. I still think the 308 has more to offer but that becomes irrelevant if the rifle is uncomfortable to shoot, because you won't practice. if you don't practice, you are dangerous out in the field.

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