Beto O'Rourke 2020

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#76 Post by VodoundaVinci » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:11 am

Beto's unmitigated desire to disarm Americans means I can't/won't vote for him. As much as the house is on fire now, you ain't seen nuthin' yet when compared to what's gonna happen when we are disarmed. He's dead to me.

VooDoo

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#77 Post by max129 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:51 am

Riding coat tails on mass shootings is simply pandering to voters in an emotional state.

No one wants to address the "big picture", which IMO, is that our formerly safe, open society was always vulnerable to these kinds of attacks. Take away the guns and give me a barrel of moth balls, a truck load of fertilizer or 20 gallons of gasoline and I can easily increase the death rate to 10x what we have seen. Total cost of materials? Less than $1,000. Total knowledge needed? I already have it. -- What is stopping me? No desire, no reason, moral objections to the taking of life, a desire for a safe and orderly society, and proper upbringing by a Saint of a Mother.

Before the 1970s, there were virtually no commercial aircraft highjackings. Then, once the idea was propagated, there were highjackings every month until airport security was locked down. And that sufficed until 9/11 when the game was upped again. Few people remember that we used to meet family members at the gate when their plane landed. All that has changed.

Now, all open venues in the world are targets. Within the next 20 to 30 years, you will not be able to enter a sports arena, or even a shopping mall without going through turnstile security with facial recognition, metal detectors and security personnel.

But no politician will find that vision of the future a "vote getter". I believe I just described reality pretty well. Voters do not like reality.

I remember my time as a Medical Triage Officer in the Marines. A Marine would come in on a Jolly Green with a massive head wound, no heartbeat and holes in his body the size of softballs - the body was growing cold. His buddies would scream at me "DO SOMETHING". After the first couple of times (and I probably saw this event 20+ times in 14 months), I told them that the only thing left to "DO" was to summon a Priest, and the only immediate information that was helpful was the Marine's religious preferences for last rites on his dog tags.

I also learned that this honest assessment was not what they wanted. What they wanted was to see a flurry of heroic activity to save a dead person. But that is not what Triage Officers do.

I find these mass attacks disheartening. The perpetrators have no actual dog in the fights. They are not injured parties. They simply got themselves all riled up by reading too much internet trash talk.

But after the event, the public is screaming "DO SOMETHING" and politicians capitalize on the appearance of "DOING SOMETHING" so they can capture more media attention. (It's more about attention than "votes" at this stage.)

Jimmy Carter paid the price for trying to "do the right thing" and not pandering. But he lost the media war. A good "leader" in the modern world fights their fights on two fronts: the war of reality, with slow, partial, pragmatic solutions; the war of communication with helpful, adult messages that keep people on track. We think it is a joke now, but this is exactly what the King of England did during the blitzes in WWII - "Keep Calm and Carry On". The King let the political class own the practical solutions and gave them air cover with helpful, adult messages.

IMO, both kinds of needed leadership are sorely lacking in the modern world. Obama, for all his faults as a centrist, was pretty good at the "Keep Calm" message - not much loved for it, but good at it.

Like VooDoo, Beto just lost more credibility in my mind. If he is going to pretend to "DO SOMETHING", then at least pretend to do something that will actually work.
Last edited by max129 on Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#78 Post by senorgrand » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:02 pm

good post...thanks
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#79 Post by featureless » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:12 pm

max129 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:51 am
Like VooDoo, Beto just lost more credibility in my mind. If he is going to pretend to "DO SOMETHING", then at least pretend to do something that will actually work.
That's where I am with all of this. I am not an unreasonable person and if a leader were to say an infringement would lead to a better outcome for all of us (and back it up with substantial evidence), I'd be willing to strongly consider it. But that's not the case here. All evidence points to current gun control proposals (NICS excepted) as being a fucking train wreck that will do little to nothing to address the issue while significantly infringing on the constitutional rights of millions. :ras:

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#80 Post by DMac » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:11 pm

This is what happens during election years. Everyone is quick draw pander mode.

The media doesn't help either, stories that wouldn't have seen the light of day are being reported more to give candidates fuel for the fire

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#81 Post by Marlene » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:07 pm

I think there’s some real interesting stuff to be seen in Beto’s moves since the shooting. His shifted approach to directly confronting Trump’s encouragement of white supremacists is important and worth watching.

You’d never know it here, where people are continually surprised by dem candidates embracing gun control. No shit. Water is wet. How can y’all actually say “well now that he’s for gun control I’ll never support him” like you just started observing American politics three weeks ago?
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#82 Post by K9s » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:30 pm

Good post, Max.

I think Beto is not just riding emotion, but he is actually emotional right now. At the time of the shooting, he had no idea if his friends and family were among the injured. I'll give him a few weeks to figure out his candidacy. Dems run against guns. It happens.

I also agree that his WTF moment with the press was refreshing.... They asked stupid questions while the country's leadership is failing. The white nationalism is policy now. WTF?
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#83 Post by YankeeTarheel » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:39 pm

He can do far more good beating John Cornyn than just being another also-ran.
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#84 Post by VodoundaVinci » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:55 pm

I don't think anyone is "surprised" that Dems are anti gun, Marlene. It's just that this time many of us are gonna try and vote Democrat because the options are pretty damn bad. But I'm not a Democrat and will not vote party line just to get a Democrat in office - I'm not voting Democrat "no matter what". So I'm desperately hoping we weed out the most obvious anti gunners very soon. Quickly. Of which O'Rourke is one.

I'll take my chances with Bernie. Biden and guys like Beto will get our guns (or try to) even if they get little else done. He's not doing anyone any good muddying the Presidential water. He's not gonna pull it off.

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#85 Post by K9s » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:22 pm

Bernie? He only gives lip service to gun control. The rest actually take it more seriously.

VooDoo, my state has a small chance to go blue, so I will vote for a Dem paper cup versus Trump or staying home. Everyone is in a different situation, so vote what is best for you.
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#86 Post by max129 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:48 am

Quoting myself above:

Now, all open venues in the world are targets. Within the next 20 to 30 years, you will not be able to enter a sports arena, or even a shopping mall without going through turnstile security with facial recognition, metal detectors and security personnel.
Las Vegas is putting these on all the major streets. It is a big project.
las vegas.png

Sports events - Baseball
baseball.jpg

Hospitals
hospitals2.jpg

IMO, we will approach a "Minority Report" level of surveillance within 30 years.

And, for those who value 2A rights, this will really put the kabosh on concealed carry.

It's funny - many venues want to prohibit firearms, but they have no place to check firearms. Everyone says "just put it in your car". Oh, so now I have to have my car with me at all times?

And all these barriers and scanning will cause attackers to switch from firearms to other means at some point.
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#87 Post by max129 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:51 am

The platform here blocks multiple file uploads. More ...

This is from in front of my new place - car barriers (Bollards)
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#88 Post by TrueTexan » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:23 am

Max129 I agree with your posts. we are already seeing more Big Brother with the CCTV and other surveillance systems with facial recognition. Read the other day, the police are now taping into the Ring doorbell and camera security systems. How long before they are tapping into the Alexa Echos and listening to your conversations? Just look at what China is doing now and see the view of what we can expect in the near future.

I still think Beto should have run against Cornyn for the Texas Senate seat and not tried for president.
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#89 Post by Wino » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:35 am

Whether Cornyn or Trump, should Beto be in either race - he's still better than the existing putz's.
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#90 Post by K9s » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:42 am

This surveillance state means profits for the security industry. It won't stop unless the people decide privacy is important.
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#91 Post by max129 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:51 am

K9s said:

This surveillance state means profits for the security industry. It won't stop unless the people decide privacy is important.
The Roman Senate had a very clear rule in 100 B.C. - The Senate was the supreme authority and no other rulers had more power than the Senate.

Then came a series of "crises" that caused them to adopt, for a short period, "Dictators" to guide them during a crisis. First was Cornelius Sulla, then Julias Caesar. After that, Rome converted from a Republic to an Empire and had Emperors for hundreds of years.

We are experiencing this now. IMO, the "Patriot Act" was a conversion event that migrates us to a permanent surveillance state. While I doubt our outward appearance of government will change as visibly as Rome's did, in many ways the changes will be as profound.

I believe that "crises" such as 9/11, mass shootings, the growth of China, 15 year wars (Afghanistan anyone) and particularly, cyber warfare, will cause a degradation of what we today call "freedoms".

There are really 3 kinds of freedoms:

Freedom of - usually beliefs, association (freedom of implies a slightly more passive state than "freedom to")

Freedom to - act, move about, speak, carry firearms, work, marry, etc.

Freedom from - surveillance, search and seizure, etc.

All of these freedoms are being eroded. And I am not a "freedoms" hot head - I am a disgusting pragmatist.

We are starting to see people "denounced" - and at first, it all looks like it is making society safer!!!! What a pleasure!!! What a relief!!! Vigilant neighbors, hurrah!!!

Maybe time to read up on bocche dei leoni, "the lions' mouths" in Venice. Pretty soon, normal people will be "swatted" and found to have (shocking) "Arsenals in their homes".

What will it take? An anonymous complaint (watch for the anon hotlines to report 'dangerous' people). Will really dangerous people get outed? Yes, of course, just as the lion's mouth collected really info on real corruption. But innocent people will also be swept up - and as people see how effective it is, it will become a "normal" behavior against people with enemies (think divorce of course, and related hostilities).

I do not believe there is a remedy for this trend - I tend to think that just as we cannot uninvent the nuclear weapons, we cannot uninvent electronic surveillance.

In addition to reading up on bocche dei leoni, maybe some cyber-punk science fiction is in order.

TrueTexan said:

How long before they are tapping into the Alexa Echos and listening to your conversations?
I mean no disrespect to anyone who has adopted these invasive technologies. I would urge people to simply disconnect listening devices. They are not safe and cannot be made safe unless unplugged and batteries removed.
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#92 Post by K9s » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:40 pm

If someone has Alexa or whatever in your house... Why? Is it really that useful or convenient to have something listening 24/7 for every command you might utter?

If you might fall and break a hip, it might be good to have a way to call for help. Other than that... Why?
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#93 Post by DMac » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:42 pm


K9s wrote:
If you might fall and break a hip, it might be good to have a way to call for help. Other than that... Why?
*falls and breaks femur*

Me: "Alexa, call 911, please"

Alexa: "Playing '911' by Wyclef Jean"

I lay on the floor looking up at the ceiling listening to Wyclef Jean hating my life.

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#94 Post by DispositionMatrix » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:25 am

A celebrity said something about confiscation. The candidate did not like it. Here is Charles C.W. Cooke's take:
Meghan McCain Is Right about AR-15 Confiscation, and You Know It
There are just two types of people engaging in this debate: People who know that Meghan McCain is correct, and people who are pretending that they do not know that Meghan McCain is correct. It doesn’t not especially matter what your politics are, or what you think of private gun ownership in the United States. It does not matter, either, whether you want Meghan McCain to be right or you want her to be wrong. If you have read any American history at all, you know that, as a matter of dull, neutral fact, McCain is correct. Americans defied and resisted the prohibition of alcohol, often violently, even after it was passed into law by a supermajority in Congress and in the states. And, eventually, they won. Americans have defied and violated the prohibition of drugs, often violently, since it began. And, slowly, but surely, they are winning. Americans already ignore most gun-control measures — even in states with significant pro-gun control majorities. Were confiscation to be tried, they would defy and resist it, often violently. And, eventually, they would win, as they did the last time around.

They would not do so because Meghan McCain gave them the idea. They would do because this is what happens in American when prohibitions are tried. The parties affected by the prohibition do not comply with the prohibitionists, and the ones that do comply — or that initially sided with the prohibitionists — turn out to have a remarkably low tolerance for the violence that is necessary to bring everyone else into line. Meghan McCain knows this. And so do you.

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#95 Post by YankeeTarheel » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:53 am

Just had a big argument with my older brother last night (we can argue and not take it personally). Despite the fact that he's got a shotgun, and he got it years before I became a gun owner, he supports a ban on "Assault Weapons" and making ammo super-expensive, even calling them "assault rifles"--the whole 9 yards. Despite the fact that he lives in NC, and now in a rather rural section where pretty much everyone's a Trump voter (he's the unicorn there) he doesn't believe that armed thugs are actually going to go all KKK and brown shirt on us to start killing Trump's designated enemies in the streets and that I'm over-reacting. Maybe I am, but I'm seeing armed looting in Abaco, which I know well.

I did point out that if cops who are trained fire dozens of rounds to barely hit one perp, how is a home-owner supposed to do it with only 5 rounds? And if ammo is super-expensive, how can you train to be accurate? That kind of got him.

But "gunz" are to too many libs what "Evil-Lution" and "baby-killing"(abortion) is to the right. They go brain-dead and refuse all rational arguments.
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#96 Post by highdesert » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:14 am

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:53 am
I did point out that if cops who are trained fire dozens of rounds to barely hit one perp, how is a home-owner supposed to do it with only 5 rounds? And if ammo is super-expensive, how can you train to be accurate? That kind of got him.

But "gunz" are to too many libs what "Evil-Lution" and "baby-killing"(abortion) is to the right. They go brain-dead and refuse all rational arguments.
And by reducing mag size, the gun grabbers win drop by drop by drop - 10 rounds, then 5 rounds, then 3 rounds, then 1 rounds at which time the gun is useless and they grab it.

Arguing with liberals about guns is like arguing with the right wing over immigration - it's all emotion.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#97 Post by DMac » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:29 am


YankeeTarheel wrote:he doesn't believe that armed thugs are actually going to go all KKK and brown shirt on us to start killing Trump's designated enemies in the streets and that I'm over-reacting. Maybe I am, but I'm seeing armed looting in Abaco, which I know well.
A lot of people never expect to have their homes invaded while they are asleep, yet it happens. Do you really want to roll the dice hoping odds in your favor?

People have short memories. Tell him the last lynching in America happened less than 40 years ago. So it's not like we're that far removed from public barbaric acts. The same people alive during the lynching years are still here,and they have kids.
YankeeTarheel wrote: I did point out that if cops who are trained fire dozens of rounds to barely hit one perp, how is a home-owner supposed to do it with only 5 rounds? And if ammo is super-expensive, how can you train to be accurate? That kind of got him.
That's a good point I never thought of. Not to mention you're expecting people to behave the same way under stress in an uncontrolled environment as they do in a controlled range environment. It's just not the same when your life is on the line. You can shoot with 99% accuracy at the range, but what about when shit actually hits the fan?
YankeeTarheel wrote: But "gunz" are to too many libs what "Evil-Lution" and "baby-killing"(abortion) is to the right. They go brain-dead and refuse all rational arguments.
It was the same reasoning for the prohibition. Emotions over rationale. Alcohol makes people do stupid shit, so let's ban it. It's awfully childish, imo.

Liberals are funny sometimes. They complain about asset forfeiture and stop & frisk being unconstitutional. But these acts creeped into society by chipping away at the Constitution using the same tactics gun grabbers use

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#98 Post by YankeeTarheel » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:35 am

James Byrd Jr. was lynched in 1998. That's only 21 years ago.
40 years ago was the Greensboro, NC massacre where Nazis and Klansman murdered 5 Communist Workers Party members. Every one of them was acquitted, too, on self-defense.
I was living in NC then and they clearly got to the jurors, because they went BACK to their cars, got their guns, and started shooting!
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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#99 Post by DMac » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:40 am


YankeeTarheel wrote:James Byrd Jr. was lynched in 1998. That's only 21 years ago.
40 years ago was the Greensboro, NC massacre where Nazis and Klansman murdered 5 Communist Workers Party members. Every one of them was acquitted, too, on self-defense.
I was living in NC then and they clearly got to the jurors, because they went BACK to their cars, got their guns, and started shooting!
It's sad, I wasn't even talking about neither of the ones you're referring to, I was talking about Michael Donald in 1981.

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Re: Beto O'Rourke 2020

#100 Post by featureless » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:04 am

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:53 am
I did point out that if cops who are trained fire dozens of rounds to barely hit one perp, how is a home-owner supposed to do it with only 5 rounds? And if ammo is super-expensive, how can you train to be accurate? That kind of got him.
There are several other issues here worth noting when having that particular conversation. Police are trained in firearms use (clearly, accuracy is suspect and more training would be a good idea). Police are also, generally, ready for a confrontation as they roll up on a scene rather than being woken from a deep sleep by the door crashing open. They also have a long arm at hand. They also have bullet proof doors. They also have body armor. They also have backup, both additional LEO and EMT. They have every advantage that a homeowner facing a break in does not. Why again do they need higher capacity magazines than the homeowner?

Places that have implemented assault weapon bans and magazine bans have experience compliance rates from 0-2ish percent. Do they really expect better from confiscation/buy back? Confiscation would be a messy business and LEO already has plenty to do.

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