Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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"There was too much of a tendency early on to dismiss this possibility of a laboratory leak, and I think there was a lot, and I think the press bears some responsibility for this," Rice said in an interview with "Face the Nation" that aired Sunday. "'Well, it had to be animal-to-human transmission.' These were conspiracy theories about a laboratory leak. And in fact, some of the evidence was right in front of our faces."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/condoleezza- ... 58995.html

She is clearly correct, but let's talk about WHY the press wasn't open to the lab leak theory... Because it came from the mouth of Donald Trump, out of which 9 out of 10 things are blatant lies. Then to throw further fuel on the fire, he offered absolutely NO evidence to support the claim. And lastly, while pushing his theory, he inserted the maximum amount of racist bile.

So, pardon us all if we didn't take him seriously...He's generally not someone to believe, pretty much EVER.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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FrontSight wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:09 pm
"There was too much of a tendency early on to dismiss this possibility of a laboratory leak, and I think there was a lot, and I think the press bears some responsibility for this," Rice said in an interview with "Face the Nation" that aired Sunday. "'Well, it had to be animal-to-human transmission.' These were conspiracy theories about a laboratory leak. And in fact, some of the evidence was right in front of our faces."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/condoleezza- ... 58995.html

She is clearly correct, but let's talk about WHY the press wasn't open to the lab leak theory... Because it came from the mouth of Donald Trump, out of which 9 out of 10 things are blatant lies. Then to throw further fuel on the fire, he offered absolutely NO evidence to support the claim. And lastly, while pushing his theory, he inserted the maximum amount of racist bile.

So, pardon us all if we didn't take him seriously...He's generally not someone to believe, pretty much EVER.
Yeah, but the press has the duty to find and report truth. The press, like so many others, were blind to anything Trump said/did that had nuggets of good/truth in it (not that there were many).

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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featureless wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:42 pm
FrontSight wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:09 pm
"There was too much of a tendency early on to dismiss this possibility of a laboratory leak, and I think there was a lot, and I think the press bears some responsibility for this," Rice said in an interview with "Face the Nation" that aired Sunday. "'Well, it had to be animal-to-human transmission.' These were conspiracy theories about a laboratory leak. And in fact, some of the evidence was right in front of our faces."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/condoleezza- ... 58995.html

She is clearly correct, but let's talk about WHY the press wasn't open to the lab leak theory... Because it came from the mouth of Donald Trump, out of which 9 out of 10 things are blatant lies. Then to throw further fuel on the fire, he offered absolutely NO evidence to support the claim. And lastly, while pushing his theory, he inserted the maximum amount of racist bile.

So, pardon us all if we didn't take him seriously...He's generally not someone to believe, pretty much EVER.
Yeah, but the press has the duty to find and report truth. The press, like so many others, were blind to anything Trump said/did that had nuggets of good/truth in it (not that there were many).

I agree, the press did a piss poor job during the last four years. They gave knee jerk responses to anything that Trump said, they could have investigated like what is being done right now. We know chemical warfare exists, Russia's infamous Novichok is a prime example. And of course China was dismissing talk of lab leaks as being anti-Chinese or anti-Asian. We now know that there were SARS Cov-1 leaks in that lab so it's not hard to believe that this may have been developed there and unintentionally leaked.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken told "Axios on HBO" the Biden administration is determined to "get to the bottom" of COVID-19's origins, and said the U.S. will hold China accountable.

"The most important reason we have to get to the bottom of this is that's the only way we're going to be able to prevent the next pandemic or at least do a better job in mitigating it," he said during a wide-ranging interview in the State Department's Benjamin Franklin State Dining Room.

Blinken said China still hasn't "given us the transparency we need," access for international inspectors and experts, or real-time information sharing. "That has to happen," he added. "(A)t the end of the day, it's profoundly in China's interest to do this, as well."

Blinken said that if China "purports to be a responsible international actor," it will have "to do everything it can to provide all the information it has to make sure we can hopefully prevent this from happening again."

On U.S. companies doing business with China, Blinken said it's "very important" they not "aid and abet ... China's ability to use surveillance technology to repress its own people, or to export that technology to allow other autocratic or authoritarian governments from doing the same thing."

In an executive order issued Friday, President Biden expanded the list of Chinese companies whose shares are off-limits to American investors because of connections to China's "military-industrial complex."
https://www.axios.com/blinken-china-cov ... f3e9a.html

WHO is impotent, the US and other countries can do some digging and hopefully we get closer to an answer.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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featureless wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:42 pmYeah, but the press has the duty to find and report truth. The press, like so many others, were blind to anything Trump said/did that had nuggets of good/truth in it (not that there were many).
No doubt about it, but I recall people in the press pushing for details and Trump didn't offer any. Presumably Trump's sources are US intelligence, so if the White House isn't willing to share US intelligence, where does the press go?

What's more, there didn't even seem to be any European sources running down this angle... In fact, they were doing pretty much the same thing as US press.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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FrontSight wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:16 pm
featureless wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:42 pmYeah, but the press has the duty to find and report truth. The press, like so many others, were blind to anything Trump said/did that had nuggets of good/truth in it (not that there were many).
No doubt about it, but I recall people in the press pushing for details and Trump didn't offer any. Presumably Trump's sources are US intelligence, so if the White House isn't willing to share US intelligence, where does the press go?

What's more, there didn't even seem to be any European sources running down this angle... In fact, they were doing pretty much the same thing as US press.

It went from automatically being dismissed by the media and anti-Trumpers, to being a plausible theory. And that seems to have happened because scientists published an opinion piece in "Science" and the press started talking with these experts/scientists and found out it's very plausible. Trump's "US intelligence" would have talked with experts in the field, but the press apparently never talked with those having opposing views. The European press was just as anti-Trump as the US media. If someone stonewalls, the press forgot how to find other sources.

Now there are at least two plausible theories, neither one has been fully proven.

Discussed on the other thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55909&p=837528&hili ... ak#p837528
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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I have never dismissed any of the theories, but after reading the Science article and seeing some interviews with virologists, I did begin to suspect. More than one mentioned the virus seemed a bit too well evolved to have just suddenly appeared.

Of course a lab leak is always an option; they're staffed by human beings. So I never ruled it out per-se, I just began to give it less credibility once Trump started hocking the story. Again, boy who cries wolf. Trump's mouth opens, my bullshit-o-meter pegs into the red zone immediately.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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FrontSight wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:06 pm I have never dismissed any of the theories, but after reading the Science article and seeing some interviews with virologists, I did begin to suspect. More than one mentioned the virus seemed a bit too well evolved to have just suddenly appeared.

Of course a lab leak is always an option; they're staffed by human beings. So I never ruled it out per-se, I just began to give it less credibility once Trump started hocking the story. Again, boy who cries wolf. Trump's mouth opens, my bullshit-o-meter pegs into the red zone immediately.

Yes Trump was the perpetual victim, he always had an excuse so it was easy to take the other side. Scientists will always differ, it's built into their method of research, I'm just glad that there are multiple theories to examine..
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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tonguengroover wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:29 pm It didn't help that China blocked out the press and locked everything down so the news media had no real definite source cept orange man.
I do recall some scientists raising the lab leak theory early on, but media did not pursue. The press, especially mainstream media, is just fanatically pushing agendas anymore (on both "sides"). It's gross and it leaves us vulnerable to continued tribalism and absolute fucking ignorance.

We can expect China to do China things WRT free speech. We should hold our journalists to a higher standard, just like our politicians. Unfortunately, all we seem to want is the void of self-confirming bullshit that we've got. :)

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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featureless wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:37 pm I do recall some scientists raising the lab leak theory early on, but media did not pursue. The press, especially mainstream media, is just fanatically pushing agendas anymore (on both "sides"). It's gross and it leaves us vulnerable to continued tribalism and absolute fucking ignorance.

We can expect China to do China things WRT free speech. We should hold our journalists to a higher standard, just like our politicians. Unfortunately, all we seem to want is the void of self-confirming bullshit that we've got. :)
Can I get an Amen!!! Very well said.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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The "lab leak" idea was, and is, being deliberately conflated with the "genetically engineered bioweapon" suggestion promoted by Donny and his friends. It still is.

The "genetically engineered bioweapon" was shot down decisively by genetic sequencing data that showed without a shadow of doubt that this is a wild-type coronavirus in the same family as SARS. Once it was clear that it was a wild-type virus, the lab leaked superweapon idea was thoroughly discredited.

What we are looking at now is a much more plausible scenario - that the Wuhan labbies were studying wild-type viruses and got careless. Their job is to study viruses. The same damn thing could have happened at CDC or the Russian equivalent with smallpox if the lab techs picked their nose at the bench. That's not good, but it's not some goddamn liberal media / deep state coverup and we sure as hell shouldn't give that story traction like it was. When our crazy uncles - or lets face it, with our demographic, nephews - start ranting about chinavirus coverups, its our job to explain the difference. We won't convince them, but we might keep the wrong ideas from spreading. Which is the whole point of arguing on the internet anyway.

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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I don't think anyone believes it was an engineered bioweapon; that doesn't make much sense. Bioweapons are a very double edge sword and most of the first world nations don't consider them viable as true weapons of war.

Researchers have confirmed that the disease wasn’t edited by something like CRISPR. But they did not definitively determine that the disease wasn’t developed through selective adaptation/mutation. This is how most of the Gain of Function research is done. And as it turns out, we now know that the Wuhan lab was doing Gain of Function testing of a Bat based COVID flu at the time of the outbreak. There were also a couple of researchers (one of which died IIRC) who became sick and were treated for flue like symptoms at the beginning of the outbreak.

Gain of Function testing at Wuhan (very interesting article)
https://www.vox.com/2020/5/1/21243148/w ... hould-stop

Wuhan workers got sick in November of 2019
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021052 ... rs-illness


I doubt we will ever know definitively, and China has very little incentive to admit it happened.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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Those investigating looked at the sequenced virus and stated it didn't have enough mutations to have passed from animal to animal. In two to three months, the US intelligence communities will present their findings but I doubt that will put an end to the debate. The whole Chinese state media has been running stories trying to discredit the lab leak theory, but they have no credibility.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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The world is full of viruses in the wild. They jump species sometimes - it's rare for any one virus, but there are so many that it happens all the time. HIV jumped from chimps to humans back in the 50s, but it took decades to spread enough to come to the attention of the medical community.

Half the world's population lives in SE Asia, where an estimated 40% of the mammals are bats. Bats harbor a diverse set of coronaviruses, including the SARS family. Intermediate horseshoe bats are host to one variant with a 96% genetic fit to Covid. Close proximity between dense human populations and wildlife increase the risk of spillover. Statistically, this sort of thing wasn't just likely, it was inevitable. It'll happen again, too. Whether the jump to human hosts happened within a lab or through a food market is pedantry. There will be more coronaviruses out of the region even if there's never a lab leak again.

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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The intent of the virus is not to kill but to spread. One which spreads quickly and manages to co-exist in symbiosis with the host or exhibits annoying symptoms at best is most effective. HPV is an example. Influenza and Coronavirus are arguably successful. A virus that kills its host too quickly is defeating its own chances at replication. Ebola... not so successful.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Condoleezza Rice says dismissal of lab leak theory was a "mistake"

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Bisbee wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:20 pm The intent of the virus is not to kill but to spread. One which spreads quickly and manages to co-exist in symbiosis with the host or exhibits annoying symptoms at best is most effective. HPV is an example. Influenza and Coronavirus are arguably successful. A virus that kills its host too quickly is defeating its own chances at replication. Ebola... not so successful.
Yes and the variants are also ways that the virus keeps surviving. Influenza and SARS Cov 2 also spread airborne/by droplets which is very efficient, Ebola does not.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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