Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2876
Health officials are urging fully vaccinated Californians to resume wearing masks in indoor public settings amid the latest sustained and significant COVID-19 surge.

“The Delta variant has caused a sharp increase in hospitalizations and case rates across the state. We are recommending masking in indoor public places to slow the spread while we continue efforts to get more Californians vaccinated,” Dr. Tomás Aragón, director of the California Department of Public Health and state public health officer, said in a statement Wednesday.

The new recommendation appears to be more expansive than the latest guidance from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That agency advised Tuesday that residents mask up indoors while in public in areas where community transmission is considered “substantial” or “high,” the two worst classifications on the agency’s four-tier scale.

Most of California fell into one of those categories as of Wednesday morning, including the entire southern third of the state. And more than 90% of California’s population lives in areas currently under one of those designations, according to the state Department of Public Health.

However, the state now “recommends universal masking in indoor public settings,” according to a statement.
https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ases-climb

The shortage of vaccines and slow vaccine rollouts in many parts of the world, has sparked a trend of vaccine tourism, with many tourists heading to the United States to get vaccinated.

Nearly 50% of US residents are fully vaccinated but the rates are much lower in many countries.

The BBC's Cindy Sui has been speaking to some 'vaccine tourists' at San Francisco International Airport, where anyone who is allowed to pass through customs can get a free shot as long as they do not currently have Covid, have not had another Covid vaccination and are at least 18 years old.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-58004253
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2877
Any vaccine potency will decrease in the body as the body is constantly replacing old cells with new ones. That is why you need to update almost all vaccines sometime in your life, especially Tet Tox and some recommend getting a DPT shot as you get older. Also get the shingles (chicken pox) and the pneumonia vaccines.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2878
Republicans Throw Tantrums, Assault Staff After House Doctor Renews Mask Mandate

Republicans on Capitol Hill are having a difficult time with a newly reinstated mask rule in the House of Representatives, which is based on recommendations from the Capitol physician in the wake of rising coronavirus case numbers.

The return of the mask rule also comes after the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced this week that those living in COVID-19 hotspots (including those who have been vaccinated) should wear masks again, to prevent the possibility of spreading or contracting the more infectious Delta variant of the virus.

“For all House Office Buildings, the Hall of the House, and House Committee Meetings, wearing of a well-fitted, medical grade, filtration face mask is required when an individual is in an interior space and other individuals are present,” the House physician announced.

Republicans did not receive the news in a positive way, to say the least.

Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colorado), for example, acted out in an aggressive manner toward a House staffer. When that individual attempted to hand Boebert a mask, the congresswoman threw it back in the staffer’s face, according to a source who witnessed the action in person.

Republican lawmakers also went to the House floor during the morning debate to deride the reinstated mask-wearing rules. Rep. Chip Roy (R-Texas) appeared maskless to rant against the rules while bewilderingly attempting to tie them to the issue of immigration.

“We have a crisis at our border and we’re playing footsie with mask mandates in the people’s house,” Roy said, commenting on the immigration situation at the southern U.S. border that many have pointed out is being exaggerated for political gain. “It’s absolutely absurd what this body is doing. It’s an embarrassment, a mockery, and the American people are fed up.”

Roy pushed false and racist notions in his commentary, suggesting without evidence that immigrants were increasing infection numbers in the U.S.

“This sham of an institution is doing nothing for the American people, nothing for the betterment of the people that sent their representatives here,” he added. “Which is it, vaccines or masks? Do the vaccines work or they don’t work?”

Vaccines remain the most effective way to stop the spread of coronavirus. Currently, 97 percent of hospitalizations in the U.S. are among people who did not get vaccinated for COVID-19. Where vaccines aren’t being used, masks, although not as effective, remain a way to prevent the spread of the virus versus doing nothing at all.

Roy, who appeared maskless during his statement on the House floor, is at risk of facing disciplinary action for disregarding the rules on masks. This would be his third violation of the rule, which means he may be forced to pay a $2,500 fine.

Besides Roy, at least four other Republicans in the House — Representatives Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Georgia), Thomas Massie (R-Kentucky), Beth Van Duyne (R-Texas) and Ralph Norman (R-South Carolina) — are also at risk of facing a $2,500 fine if they once again violate the rules on masking. For throwing her mask and disregarding the rules, Boebert, who previously received a first-offense warning in May, may have to pay a $500 fine.

But anger at rules on masking isn’t relegated to a small number of members in the GOP caucus. Party leaders, including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-California), also denounced the reinstatement of CDC masking guidelines this week.

“Make no mistake — The threat of bringing masks back is not a decision based on science, but a decision conjured up by liberal government officials who want to continue to live in a perpetual pandemic state,” McCarthy said on Twitter.

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, on hearing about McCarthy’s comments, reportedly described him as “a moron” to reporters.

In a separate statement defending the reinstated House mask rule, Pelosi condemned Republicans for rejecting methods to slow the spread of the virus.

“The Republican party has been delinquent in embracing the science that people need to be vaccinated,” Pelosi said. “That’s why when we talk about the masking policy in the House, we always just follow the guidance of the Capitol physician.”

Over the course of the pandemic, more than 611,000 Americans have died as a result of coronavirus. In recent days, the seven-day average of new cases being reported is up to 56,635 per day, a rate that hasn’t been seen since the end of April, and which shows a 145 percent increase over the past two weeks.
https://truthout.org/articles/republica ... k-mandate/

The Reprobate Party's Morons are not going too listen or follow the rules to prevent the spread of the COVID virus since their chief, the Orange Reprobate has told them the disease is nothing more than the Flu.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2880
Wino wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:28 am I'd be ready for a Pfizer (2nd March 31, 2021) booster shot in October along with my annual flu shot.

Same here, I'm already at the 6 month level. In between it looks like the Pfizer vaccine is still robust enough to keep me out of the hospital, ICU and morgue if I should get a breakthrough infection.
During the public health emergency, private health insurance plans will be required to cover all the costs of a COVID-19 vaccine even if an out-of-network provider administers it. The Trump Administration’s interim final rule states that Medicare’s payment rate will be considered a reasonable rate for coronavirus preventive services, including administration of a COVID-19 vaccine. Additionally, vaccine providers may not seek any reimbursement, including through balance billing, from a vaccine recipient.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-1 ... n-the-u-s/
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2881
I'm wearing short sleeves, so not much to pull up for the next shot. I would not do the COVID booster and the Flu shot at the same time. Wait a week in between to make sure and side effects are able to be traced to just one shot.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2882
TrueTexan wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:09 pm I'm wearing short sleeves, so not much to pull up for the next shot. I would not do the COVID booster and the Flu shot at the same time. Wait a week in between to make sure and side effects are able to be traced to just one shot.
Probably wise to do so. Thanks.
"Being Republican is more than a difference of opinion - it's a character flaw." "COVID can fix STUPID!"
The greatest, most aggrieved mistake EVER made in USA was electing DJT as POTUS.

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2883
Was talking with daughter/SIL this morn - stopped by as I was returning home from a shopping/med run - got to talking about the stupid guv we have and CV19 ramping up. Long story short we've come up with a plan to encourage those fearful of a micro chip being injected - that the micro chip works great and I can get an erection at will that will last as long as I want - AND it was free !! I can also watch TV in my partners eyes whilst engaged !! We felt this would cover the full age range from late teens to dementia as an enticement to get the GD shot!! LOL
"Being Republican is more than a difference of opinion - it's a character flaw." "COVID can fix STUPID!"
The greatest, most aggrieved mistake EVER made in USA was electing DJT as POTUS.

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2886
sikacz wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:12 am 156 million vaccinated, so why is the FDA not able to change the status of the vaccines? Is the FDA outdated and inflexible? So our medical people here, what’s the problem, shouldn’t there be enough information out there to make an evaluation?
It's a great question. I'm actually okay with it remaining an emergency use authorization for now. It's a reminder that we are in crisis mode and doing what we need to. Same with all our inpatient treatments--it keeps evolving and I use what I've got. I have frank discussions with patients and families about that. This is the best I know right now, I tell them. People have been receptive to that.

You make a good point though. Maybe an approved vaccine would get more people to take it. But if someone has a bad outcome from the vaccine--a statistical certainty--everyone will say why was this approved?! In the end, people will get the vaccine or they won't, regardless of approval status.

I rolled up my sleeve for the Moderna vaccine as soon as it was available to me--December 23, 2020. And I was comfortable enough with the vaccines that my wife and teenaged daughter were vaccinated as soon as they were eligible.

Disclaimer. I don't think my opinion on the larger issues like this carries any special weight. I'm just a ground level physician implementing the best therapies and making the best judgment calls I can. I rely on people smarter than me to inform my decisions--the epidemiologists, scientists, infectious disease and pulmonary care specialized physicians, etc.

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2889
Israel will start offering booster doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine to its older citizens on Sunday, as health officials described new data showing a decline in the vaccine's protection against severe disease over time.

A key unknown with the COVID-19 vaccine is how long protection will last. The emergence and spread of the Delta variant has intensified that uncertainty, with the variant showing the ability to partially evade the vaccine's protection.

In response to the latest data, Israel is offering a third dose of the vaccine to its citizens who are 60 and older and at least five months removed from their second shot. Other countries are also considering if and when to roll out booster shots. Israel had already begun offering booster shots to some people with compromised immune systems, such as cancer patients.

There has been a trickle of studies in recent weeks suggesting protection from Pfizer's vaccine starts to wane after several months. Israel's decision was motivated by signals of decreased efficacy, The Wall Street Journal reported.

In particular, one Israeli scientist said the country had data showing the vaccine's protection against severe illness among this 60-plus age group dropped from 97% in April to 81% in July. Those results have yet to be published in a peer-reviewed medical journal or posted on a preprint server.

Eric Topol, the director and founder of the Scripps Research Translational Institute, said on Twitter that if these results held up, they would be "the first sign of a significant dropdown of protection against hospitalizations and death for these vaccines." "I hope all of the data will be shared ASAP as the implications are big," he tweeted.


Israel's findings appear at odds with reports from the UK in June, with one large observational study finding Pfizer's vaccine reduced the risk of hospitalization from the Delta variant by 96%. One difference between the two findings is that Israel's results are specific to an older population.

Pfizer presented more results on Wednesday supporting the company's stance that boosters would be needed six to 12 months after initial vaccination. Laboratory testing by Pfizer showed neutralizing antibodies, a key part of the immune response, significantly declined eight months after the second dose of its vaccine among all age groups.

The New York drug making giant also posted new, detailed results from its clinical trial that enrolled more than 40,000 volunteers. Longer-term follow-up showed the vaccine's ability to prevent symptomatic COVID-19 cases, regardless of severity, dipped to 84% starting four months after the second dose, compared with 96% efficacy in the first two months.

The vaccine's overall efficacy against severe disease in that study was 97%, with 30 cases occurring among people who received placebo shots and one case in a person who got the vaccine.

Pfizer's findings have also yet to be published in a peer-reviewed medical journal, and the company said it would submit an application to US regulators in August to begin offering booster shots.
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel- ... rly-2021-7
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2890
Biden Calls On States To Give $100 To Every Newly Vaccinated Person

President Joe Biden has called on state and local governments to give $100 to those who opt to get a COVID-19 vaccine.

The White House announced the new plan Thursday as the dangerous delta variant continues to spread across the U.S. and some states lag behind in vaccination rates.

The White House said the new plan will incentivize the vaccine-hesitant to go get their shots.

“When the grocery store Kroger started offering $100 to their associates to get vaccinated, it saw vaccination rates increase from 50% to 75%,” the White House said in a statement. “States like New Mexico, Ohio, and Colorado have piloted $100 incentive programs that have also helped move the dial on vaccinations.”

Along with offering $100 to get vaccinated, Biden also announced that small- and medium-sized businesses will be reimbursed for offering paid leave to employees who still need to get vaccinated.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/biden-c ... b96e640a3c

WTF he should have said to give $100 to those that stepped forward and already took the vaccine and those that take it by August 15th. Anybody after that Tough Shit.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2891
Worth trying, but it's a voluntary thing for each state. I think Biden should call the prime minister of Ireland and ask him how they got their numbers up so high. Saw an article today that 86% of residents in the Irish Republic have had at least one dose and 71% have had two doses.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2892
The Irish are famous for thriftiness and the potato famine. There is a sense that winter and death is always just around the corner in their culture, which works well for keeping folks alive during a pandemic.

Americans... appear more like oblivious lemmings.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2894
Bad news.
‘The war has changed’: Internal CDC document urges new messaging, warns delta infections likely more severe
Elsewhere, I'd read it described as the original strain had an R0 of 2 (1 infected passed it on to 2 people. Delta has and R0 of 8-9 (one person passes it on to 8 or 9 people.
The delta variant of the coronavirus appears to cause more severe illness than earlier variants and spreads as easily as chickenpox, according to an internal federal health document that argues officials must “acknowledge the war has changed.”
vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.
“I think the central issue is that vaccinated people are probably involved to a substantial extent in the transmission of delta,” Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University epidemiologist, wrote in an email after reviewing the CDC slides. “In some sense, vaccination is now about personal protection — protecting oneself against severe disease. Herd immunity is not relevant as we are seeing plenty of evidence of repeat and breakthrough infections.”
“We really need to shift toward a goal of preventing serious disease and disability and medical consequences, and not worry about every virus detected in somebody’s nose,” Neuzil said. “It’s hard to do, but I think we have to become comfortable with coronavirus not going away.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... -guidance/

One wonders about the mutations occurring within the vaccinated...

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2895
CDC Document Warns Delta Variant Is as Contagious as Chickenpox

An internal slide presentation assembled by officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warns that the Delta variant of the coronavirus—now the dominant strain in the U.S. and across much of the world—is as transmissible as chickenpox, could lead to more extreme illness than earlier mutations, and can likely be spread by people who are fully vaccinated.

First obtained by the Washington Post on Thursday, the document (pdf) states that the "Delta variant may cause more severe disease than
Alpha or ancestral strains," citing data on hospitalizations and deaths in Canada, Scotland, and Singapore. While noting that people who are fully inoculated against Covid-19 can still catch and spread the Delta variant, the document stresses that vaccines are extremely effective in preventing severe illness and death.

"Delta is different from previous strains," one of the slides reads, summarizing that the variant is "highly contagious," "likely more severe," and "breakthrough infections may be as transmissible as unvaccinated cases." The presentation says Delta is more contagious than Ebola, the seasonal flu, the flu of 1918, and smallpox.

Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the CDC, confirmed the authenticity of the leaked document in an interview with CNN.

"I think people need to understand that we're not crying wolf here. This is serious," Walensky said. "It's one of the most transmissible viruses we know about. Measles, chickenpox, this—they're all up there."

An unnamed federal official told the New York Times that the CDC is expected to publish additional data on the Delta variant on Friday.

"The CDC is very concerned with the data coming in that Delta is a very serious threat that requires action now," the official said.

Some public health experts who reviewed the CDC document said they are now even more worried about the Delta variant, which was first detected in India in December and has since spread to more than 100 countries. The U.S. is currently averaging around 71,000 new coronavirus cases a day, with more than 80% of those attributable to the Delta strain.

"I finished reading it significantly more concerned than when I began," Robert Wachter, chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of California at San Francisco, told the Post.

But Dr. Ashish Jha, dean of the Brown University School of Public Health, said that while the document makes clear the Delta variant is a major issue, he found the presentation to be "largely reassuring."

"Bottom line? Yeah, Delta variant is bad. Like really bad," Jha wrote in a series of tweets late Thursday. But, he added: "Our vaccines are good. Like really good. Breakthrough infections happen, sometimes they may spread to others. But if enough people get the shot, the pandemic does come to an end."

In addition to full vaccination, the CDC document recommends "universal masking" as a way to control the spread of the Delta variant. That advice is significantly more sweeping than the guidance the CDC released to the public earlier this week, which recommended that vaccinated people wear masks in public indoor spaces only in areas of the country where cases are surging.

The agency's presentation surfaced as President Joe Biden announced Thursday that federal civilian employees who do not show proof of vaccination will be required to wear a mask, undergo coronavirus testing once or twice per week, and socially distance. The president also vowed to "continue to do everything I can to encourage the unvaccinated to get vaccinated."

"Last month, a study showed that over 99% of Covid-19 deaths had been among the unvaccinated—99%," Biden said in a speech Thursday. "People are dying and will die who don't have to die. If you're out there unvaccinated, you don't have to die."
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/ ... chickenpox

Now that COVD infection spread rate has been linked to similar rate in Chicken Pox. Can we now expect the Anti-vaxxers to start having COVID parties?
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2897
My county has the highest weekly COVID case count since February.
The county recorded 2,477 new infections in the past seven days — a 60% jump from the week ending July 21, which saw 1,548 total cases. The last time there was a larger one-week case total than Wednesday’s was the week that ended Feb. 24, when 2,598 new cases were reported.

In contrast, the rate of deaths in the county — a total of 15 were reported in the past week — dropped 63% from the week before. In total, 4,851 casualties have been reported in the county.
Currently, 47.3% of those eligible, county residents 12 and older, are fully vaccinated.
My county DPH hasn't recommended wearing masks but Riverside County next door has and they have even more active cases.

Yes keep your seat belts on, a lot more turbulence ahead.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: New SARS type virus spreading in China

2898
featureless wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:13 am Bad news.
‘The war has changed’: Internal CDC document urges new messaging, warns delta infections likely more severe
Elsewhere, I'd read it described as the original strain had an R0 of 2 (1 infected passed it on to 2 people. Delta has and R0 of 8-9 (one person passes it on to 8 or 9 people.
The delta variant of the coronavirus appears to cause more severe illness than earlier variants and spreads as easily as chickenpox, according to an internal federal health document that argues officials must “acknowledge the war has changed.”
vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.
“I think the central issue is that vaccinated people are probably involved to a substantial extent in the transmission of delta,” Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University epidemiologist, wrote in an email after reviewing the CDC slides. “In some sense, vaccination is now about personal protection — protecting oneself against severe disease. Herd immunity is not relevant as we are seeing plenty of evidence of repeat and breakthrough infections.”
“We really need to shift toward a goal of preventing serious disease and disability and medical consequences, and not worry about every virus detected in somebody’s nose,” Neuzil said. “It’s hard to do, but I think we have to become comfortable with coronavirus not going away.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... -guidance/

One wonders about the mutations occurring within the vaccinated...

Yes, it's a powerful variant. From another article on the CDC document.
The highly transmissible Delta variant is a more formidable foe than previously believed, largely due to its ability to infect and be spread by people who are fully vaccinated, according to data gathered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

A confidential document prepared by the agency cites evidence from a recent outbreak in Massachusetts involving at least 145 people who were infected with the Delta variant, which was first detected in India. In the Massachusetts outbreak, the viral loads of the 80 people who were vaccinated were essentially the same as the viral loads of the 65 people who were not vaccinated.

The CDC document also cites reports about so-called breakthrough cases in India. The viral loads of vaccinated people who nonetheless became infected with Delta were higher than the viral loads of vaccinated people who were infected with other coronavirus strains, those reports found.
The Delta variant was already known to be about 50% more transmissible than the Alpha variant, which was first detected in the United Kingdom and is itself about 56% more transmissible than the original coronavirus that sparked the global pandemic.

Scientists have also established that people infected with Delta have about 1,000 times more viral particles in their upper respiratory systems than people who are infected with earlier coronavirus strains.
That difference allows Delta to jump from person to person just four days after an initial infection, said Chunhuei Chi, director of the Center for Global Health at Oregon State University. With previous strains, it took about six days for that to occur, he said.

This rapid spread helps explain why the Delta variant, which is thought to have arrived in the U.S. in March, now accounts for an estimated 82% of recent coronavirus infections in the United States, according to CDC estimates.

The CDC document suggests that breakthrough cases are expected to rise — not only because of Delta’s enhanced transmission powers, but because the number of vaccinated people is rising as well.
The CDC document cites three reports that link the variant with more serious health outcomes:

In a preprint study from Ontario, Canada, people infected with Delta were more than twice as likely to be admitted to the hospital, nearly four times more likely to be treated in the intensive care unit, and more than twice as likely to die of COVID-19 compared with people infected with earlier versions of the coronavirus.

In a preprint report from Singapore, people infected with Delta were 4.9 times more likely to require oxygen treatment, be admitted to an ICU or die of COVID-19 than were people infected in the initial months of the pandemic.

In a peer-reviewed study from Scotland, the odds of needing hospital care were 85% greater for people with Delta infections than for people infected with other versions of the virus.

In another potentially ominous sign, the CDC document also noted that among people who had already weathered a coronavirus infection at least 180 days earlier, the risk of a subsequent infection with the Delta variant was about 46% higher than the risk of a subsequent infection with the Alpha variant.
Studies from Britain, Canada and Israel suggest the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine loses some effectiveness when it goes up against Delta. Although its ability to reduce the risk of coronavirus infections and COVID-19 cases was diminished, the vaccine was highly effective at reducing the risk of hospitalization — by 96% in England and Scotland, by 100% in Canada and by 93% in Israel.
Overall, the COVID-19 vaccines authorized for use in the U.S. are making an impact, the CDC document says.
But with only 49.4% of the U.S. population fully vaccinated, other measures are necessary to curb the Delta variant’s spread, the CDC document says.

“Given higher transmissibility and current vaccine coverage, universal masking is essential to reduce transmission of the Delta variant,” it says.
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2 ... ta-variant
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: featureless and 29 guests

cron