Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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Times change, equipment changes, and training changes. I can see by context that most don’t seem to notice some pretty significant changes. Go to Youtube and watch an officer involved shooting. They don’t take one careful shot, they dump 6-10 rounds VERY fast. And it’s not spray & pray. They have trained on how to effectively employ this tactic. They’re not focusing on the front sight anymore, they’re focusing on the threat. This is also why so many cops are using micro red dots, because you can see the dot while focusing on the threat. What they’re doing is twofold. They’re suppressing their opponent with overwhelming fire, and they’re putting their opponent down with overwhelming force. Cops shoot fast, and shoot to the ground. That is how cops are training, and that’s how special operations are training. Do some force on force training and you’ll quickly learn that these tactics work…almost always.

Now come the dilemma.

At some point that all filters down to the streets. How are you going to defend against one, let alone two people who are armed with state of the art hi-cap, optically sighted 9mm’s, probably wearing body armor (it’s cheap on Ebay)? Honestly the odds are in your favor…for now.

There’s a pretty slim chance any of us will ever be in a gunfight. And an even slimmer chance its someone who has been training like that, is armed like that, and is wearing body armor. But they ARE out there, and their numbers are increasing EVERY DAY. Ya’ll are gun people… Look at what shooters are buying these days. Kevlar helmets, night vision, plate carriers, suppressors… A lot of people are spending big money on high end equipment. Some of those people don’t have good intentions. I’ll go out there and say, the Jan 6 type people are some of the ones who are training like that, and are equipped like that. What if you run into those guys? Again, the odds are well in your favor. And to be honest, I’m not carrying to address that threat level either. But I’m at least aware that it is one of the threats that are out there. I don’t get that many here really realize that.

I have made my personal choices based on my own threat assessment, as everyone should do. If you say you’re fine with a revolver, I’m going to believe you…I don’t assume someone who makes different choices than I is some kind of idiot. You know your situation, and you know your capabilities. I’m just trying to provide some additional information for consideration.

I now train to shoot faster than I used to. I haven’t been able to un-learn searching for the front sight, so that hasn’t changed. But I did retire my J frame for a Ruger LCP, and I carry a full sized semi-auto when I carry a holster gun. I’m not nearly as well armed as people who have to have the latest and the greatest. I’m adequately armed, that’s about the best I can say. I think I can make a good accounting of myself even under pretty extreme situations, and that’s how everyone should feel about their equipment choices. Just don’t ignore that the world is changing.

ETA - I'm planning on upgrading my LCP to the LCP Max. Very little size/weight increase for much more magazine capacity. Great little pocket gun. Since my area is VERY low crime, most of my carry is just pocket carry. So the LCP Max will be outstanding in that capacity.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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sig230 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:51 pm My personal experience as a security guard was that I had no choice in what weapon I carried or what ammo with which it was loaded.

Also I cannot remember any of the security guards I worked with who would have made those shots.
I am in the same boat, I have been limited to revolvers at times, but my preference is always an automatic.

That said, I have been glad they didn't trust some of the people I worked with automatics, the lowest common denominator was very low.
Old School
The best upgrade for you firearm is always instruction and practice.

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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Oldschool wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:05 am That said, I have been glad they didn't trust some of the people I worked with automatics, the lowest common denominator was very low.
I felt that way with guys in the Army... There were some guys that scared the hell out of me with a loaded weapon. To the point to where I was more worried about friendly fire than fire from the enemy.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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There's some kinda safe areas and a lot of not safe areas out there. And that is what I think about when I decide about what to carry. For instance if I'm going to costco on my side of town it's pretty safe and I'll take my LCP with an extra mag.
On the other hand if I go to Walmart which is on my side of town a little more central I'll take my SR9c double stack 17 +1 and an extra ten round mag. Just because I know there's more crazies there. lol No offense to Valmart shoppers here.
Generally I'm taking the new to me 101 loaded with .357 and a speed loader or two.
The way I see it is 9mm are pew pew pew, my .357 is BANG BANG with fire. Assailant hides behind car, no problem reaching out with the .357 through an through.
Redneck Liberal This Is The Way

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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Oldschool wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:04 am I've seen a lot of scary stuff, it amazes me how many people join the military or law enforcement with no desire to learn or be proficient with firearms.

It also amazes me that it takes a higher score to drive a truck, than shoot a rifle in the Army.
When I was in the most common killer of soldiers was vehicle accidents. Back then the main culprit was the MUTT which was quite famous for roll overs, and it offered zero roll over protection (brilliant).
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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Back to Hiker - agreed, that was a great video for instructional purposes, and the guard's training was excellent. Thanks for sharing.

I don't doubt that the military, LEO agencies and private forces choose autos primarily because they are cheaper to manufacture, and secondarily because they offer greater ammunition capacity. Beyond those two factors, I doubt that they care. If revolvers were cheaper, they would have held out longer. If revolvers offered more ammunition capacity - somehow - then they would still be preferred.

If all calibers are effectively equal - and Greg Ellifritz has made a good case for that, at least for one-shot stops and kills - then the only thing that matters in a firefight is capacity. The number of rounds carried limits the number of opponents a skilled gunfighter can engage. There are two factors here, magazine size and ammunition weight. Where capacity isn't constrained - for instance, the argument about ARs in the military - the weight of reloads becomes the limiting factor. Both arguments favor small caliber, lightweight, high-capacity bottom-feeders. And thus was 5.7x28 born. Okay, topfeeder, still.

There are practical limits to the number of assailants a trained gunfighter can reasonably be expected to engage and defeat. One on one, a revolver should be just as capable as a semiauto. Three on one, and damn I want 15 rounds. And body armor. And backup. And hand grenades.

Still going wheelgun vs. bears, unless I can go long.

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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Most civilian defense is 3 steps, 3 shots and 3 seconds. A revolvers fits that roll, but they are not better than automatics. I don't want people to underestimate revolvers, but they are less than in defensive situations. They are also a good choice for untrained citizens due the extensive learning curve with automatics.

Military and law enforcement are a totally different animal and they do not base firearms selection on budget. The ammo and training is the big expense, not the firearm itself.

The FBI has a training division that does extensive testing on all issue gear and many LE departments use this testing or do their own.

https://sofrep.com/amp/gear/the-reasons ... ck-to-9mm/

Money is no object to special forces, SWAT teams and other elite units. None of them use revolvers.
Last edited by Oldschool on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Old School
The best upgrade for you firearm is always instruction and practice.

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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FrontSight wrote: The stat for civilian shootings is interesting. I wonder how someone comes to those numbers when there is no agency in the US that actually tracks civilian shootings.
I don't know, maybe they follow reports from cities like Tucson for instance. Its getting out of hand here. Kinda like the early drug war days.
https://news.azpm.org/p/newsfeature/202 ... ate-soars/

Snip:
Tucson’s homicide rate rose 63% compared to the last two years to date. So far in 2021, statistics from the Tucson Police Department show that 49 people have been homicide victims. At this point in 2020 and 2019, that number was 30. Police officials say 70% of homicides are the result of gun violence.

“It’s hard to wrap our hands around this because it comes down to its simply not even road rage, its parking lot rage," said Tucson Assistant Police Chief Kevin Hall. "We’ve had incidents where people are fighting over a parking spot in a Circle K and there is a shooting and people die."

TPD has also seen an increase in robberies tied to homicides, according to Hall.

“You know they have this phone app, Offer Up. People will buy, sell, trade on Offer Up, they will meet in some pretty risky places at different times of night, and they get robbed. And if they fight back, they get shot,” Hall said.

The surge in gun violence can be seen across the country.
Redneck Liberal This Is The Way

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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FrontSight wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:50 am The stat for civilian shootings is interesting. I wonder how someone comes to those numbers when there is no agency in the US that actually tracks civilian shootings.

Newspapers in metro areas started tracking shootings which they took from newspaper accounts. Then organizations like Everytown, Giffords and other equally questionable sources published their stats. News sources started quoting those stats in their reporting which made their reporting questionable. What gets the attention is police shootings and mass shootings.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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Everybody has their choice. For the 357/38spl I love my S&W 686 plus in stainless 3 inch and 56 inch. Sights are adjustable I change the grips and they shoot great. Great S&W quality. Also if I need to I can beat them severely without hurting the gun or worrying about the blood causing rust stains on the stainless steel.

I also love my 44 mag Rugers Alaskan and Super Redhawk. The Redhawk is ugly as sin but the tapered barrel does reduce the muzzle weight and both are great shooters.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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TrueTexan wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:33 pm Everybody has their choice. For the 357/38spl I love my S&W 686 plus in stainless 3 inch and 56 inch. Sights are adjustable I change the grips and they shoot great. Great S&W quality. Also if I need to I can beat them severely without hurting the gun or worrying about the blood causing rust stains on the stainless steel.

I also love my 44 mag Rugers Alaskan and Super Redhawk. The Redhawk is ugly as sin but the tapered barrel does reduce the muzzle weight and both are great shooters.
Have you visited the Custom Shop at Ruger.com? Whoa Nellie. Smart looking guns.
Redneck Liberal This Is The Way

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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OldSchool writes
Military and law enforcement are a totally different animal and they do not base firearms selection on budget.
The military certainly does select 'weapon systems' based on budget and the Sig 320/M17 selection is a prime example. Does 'politics' play a role? No doubt about it(Sig320/M17) but at least in the military, $ drives a lot of decisions.

Re: Defensive REVOLVER use caught on camera

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F4FEver wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:19 am The military certainly does select 'weapon systems' based on budget and the Sig 320/M17 selection is a prime example. Does 'politics' play a role? No doubt about it(Sig320/M17) but at least in the military, $ drives a lot of decisions.
Sorry but no...

They didn't buy the M17 because it was cheap, they bought it because it was easily a better match than the Glock for the actual RFP submitted. Look at the requirements of the RFP. Sigs pistol met every last item, while Glock's had work arounds to make claims of meeting the requirements. The M17 met EVERY requirement laid out by the Army, the Glock didn't. And due to the ammunition contract SIG was able to beat Glock on price. The RFP also included ammunition for the lifetime of the program (which is where the big $$ are), holsters, suppressors, parts, manuals, armorers tools and training, etc. So SIG had a pistol clearly designed to address the requirements of the RFP, that pistol passed every test, and their bid came in with the lowest price. I say Sig won that one fair and square.

Now you can debate the Army's requirements, which seems to have been written with the Sig in mind (just like how the RFP clearly favored the Beretta in '85, and the 1911 in 1910). Some of the requirements could be debated. And the fact that they rushed the decision (because the knew Mattis wanted to just buy Glocks as a sole source).
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

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