Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:01 pm Someone or somebodies are going to get hung up to dry. Even though I’d like to see baldwin get a bit punishment, he’ll probably skate. The media and entertainment industry from my perspective are fairly anti-gun and baldwin among the loud voices. Vindictive as I am today, I’d rejoice if he got more than a slap on the wrist.

It will probably be months before we hear again from the Sheriff and DA and by that time civil lawsuits will likely have been filed. I'd expect that insurance investigators are also going through everything before they start paying out on policies. Baldwin is a producer but it's common on TV series to give the lead the added title of producer, don't know if he had any production role. There were 5 executive producers that were running that production.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11001074/f ... _=tt_cl_sm

Alec Baldwin has three brothers Daniel, William and Stephen and the Baldwin brothers have been around Hollywood for a long time. We'll have to see if he's charged or faces a civil suit like wrongful death from the Hutchins' family.

The NM governor said that they could take action, but likely she doesn't want to dictate to Hollywood since they get a lot of revenue from film shoots in her state. Push it off to the studios, production companies, unions and producers guild to tighten things up.

Southland was a cop show filmed in LA, before each season they cast went to the range to familiarize themselves with shooting. Some of them are very good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icZ-xDwj92E
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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It's the armorer and the assistant director's (AD) job to maintain safe guns, and Baldwin was told that the gun was "cold" (no blanks or live rounds, dummy or empty only!), when it was handed to him by the AD, so it's not the actor's job to check the weapon (as it is for anyone else who's handling a firearm), as the actor is concentrating on acting while the crew makes the weapons safe.

So many problem on set...

a) The armorer had little experience, was chastised by Nicolas Cage for accidently discharging a firearm which made him lose his hearing for a period of time on her previous first job as armorer.

b) A search warrant showed that the armorer had all the ammo stored mixed together, that's dummy, blank, and live rounds. Note that dummy rounds and live rounds can look the same.

Many productions forbid live rounds on set, not sure about this one?

c) The armorer and crew were seen "plinking" with live ammo off-set after hours.

d) It's a Colt 45, and supposedly the AD only opened the loading door and checked one hole in the cylinder (the weapon had three rounds in it reportedly?), and did not spin the cylinder to check the rest. This AD had been reported as handling weapons in a unsafe manner on previous productions as well.

As you can see, the armorer accidently loaded the Colt with at minimum one live round, and the AD did not do the complete safety check he's supposed to do before handing the weapon to Baldwin and proclaiming it's "cold", so major errors by both which resulted in the DP being killed, and the D being wounded in the shoulder by the same bullet (as they were checking point blank camera angles while Baldwin practiced a cross-draw in a church pew during a rehearsal (SOP is no live ammo during rehearsals, that's blanks or live rounds, sometimes empty guns only, i.e. no dummy rounds either, not sure about his one?).

So sad, and so preventable!

That's the latest I've heard...

Also, Baldwin killed a long time friend and injured another thanks to crew failures (these three had worked together before, Baldwin the DP and D, more than once I believe?), so being vindictive is total BS as Baldwin is hurting so bad already seeing he pulled the trigger!

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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The sheriff said there were three guns on the set, the gun in question was a Pietta Long Colt 45, the second was a single action 45 with a modified cylinder, I'm assuming to only accept blank rounds. The third one was an all plastic revolver. Only the Pietta would take real ammo.

No doubt Baldwin is very upset, he took a life and he can't even rationalize that he was defending himself or others. This won't be over quickly, they are still taking statements from the 100 people at the Bonanza Ranch filming site. The rumor that there was target shooting with real ammo by crew members at Bonanza Ranch, hasn't been confirmed according to the sheriff

I agree sika, Hollywood and NYC where most filming is done is anti-gun and some actors/actresses are vocal, until guns are part of their role in a film or TV show.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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DJD100 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:22 pm so it's not the actor's job to check the weapon
It might not be an actor's job, but it is always a shooter's job.

I'm amazed that people would post on a gun board that somehow some system supersedes the duties that come with picking up a gun.

Like the captain of a ship or the driver of a car, the responsibility can't be assigned, dodged, set aside, overridden or delegated.

Touch a weapon, and you assume the moral responsibility, whether you know it, whether you like it, whether you understand it or not. Even if someone (anyone) told you otherwise.

Make a mistake, and we'll hold you responsible, regardless of what you believed.

The more I read, the more I hear, the more I'm in favor of standing him in front of a firing squad and ending his ability to make mistakes with weapons.

The attitude of avoiding any responsibility or trying to somehow lay it off on someone else is far more dangerous than Baldwin's complete lack of knowledge about weapons.

[Instructor Mode On]

You, DJD100, are responsible for any bullet that comes out of any gun you are holding, regardless of the circumstances. If you don't like that, don't pick up the weapon in question. You have now been officially taught this fact and had this choice explained to you by a certified instructor.

Good luck, go in peace.

[Instructor Mode Off]

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Ylatkit wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:32 pm
CDFingers wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:43 pm As I wrote before, my guess is the actual person who made the actual error was a low paid person. Whether it was an error is a valid question.
Not mine. Baldwin is a multi-millionaire superstar.
No. The error was live ammo in the gun that was called cold.

I don't know about you, man.

CDFingers
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Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:40 pm A gun is always loaded, I’ll be vindictive.
You're just being unfeeling and vindictive is all, because you don't approve of Baldwin's politics with regards to 2A stuff.

AGAIN, there are safety rules for working with prop guns on set, and they were not followed and tragedy was the result. Why don't you blame the people who failed to properly implement the safety protocols rather than spreading vindictive BS about the actor who killed his friend, and wounded another friend ACCIDENTLY, due to the afore mentioned failures of the safety protocols by others?

Let's see, I have a platoon in my Vietnam epic, maybe 50 AR's in total with multiple 30 round mags per each squad member, and you want all 50 ACTORS to unload and reload all of their mags, even though they likely aren't trained to do it as well as not being trained to recognize what ammo is in their mags, (blank, dummy, live round etc), instead of working on their real job which is acting, hitting their marks, doing the dialog and stunts etc. Forget about it...

...the armorer(s) and the AD's deal with the weapons and the safety protocols, NOT the actors.
Last edited by DJD100 on Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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I have no opinion on children with guns, on or off set, or teaching children with guns, because I've never taught anyone who wasn't (nominally) an adult and do not feel qualified to comment. I will say I've seen Cub Scouts (eight to be a Cub Scout, as I recall) at the range who were all safer than some of the cops I've seen there.

"Why don't you blame the people who failed to properly implement the safety protocols..."

DJD100, that's exactly what I'm advocating. Holding Baldwin responsible for his actions.

If you can't tell, I'm a fan of personal responsibility. It scares me that there are gun owners who aren't. But then, now that I think about it, that's always been a fact of life. Every day. But this time, a superstar was involved. At least we won't be paying for his defense.

Reading your opinions, well-spoken as some of them are, has made up my mind. Thank you.

Baldwin should hang.

This all ties in, in a roundabout sort of way, with the second amendment. I believe that every legally sane adult has a fundamental right to self defense, and that if you're a legal adult, you're not locked up and you haven't been judged legally nuts, you should have the right to carry a weapon. Note the little dot at the end of that sentence.

That includes felons. Immigrants, with and without documentation. Even Trump supporters. (Maybe especially Trump supporters. If they have a gun, under out current laws, it's that much easier for them to lose their right to vote.) I think the second recognizes those rights.

And with those rights comes the responsibility for the bullet.

And there's another one of those little dots.

Hang him.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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lurker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:00 pm it is my opinion that primary responsibility for this lies (not necessarily in any particular order) with: 1. the person who put the loaded gun on the prop table. 2. the person who loaded the gun. 3. the person who handed it to the actor and declared it cold without checking it. 4. the person(s) who allowed live ammo and shooting same on the set and 5. lastly, the actor (baldwin) who relied on the prior 4+ persons to follow established procedure and then pulled the trigger.
What if the person in number one didn't know it was loaded? What if the person in number two was told to load the gun? What if, what if, what if.

None of it makes yet-another-person-to-blame responsible.

There is one and only one person who could have prevented the whole shooting regardless of whatever chain of mistakes had taken place. The biggest problem with your list is that Baldwin still could have prevented the shooting in spite of the entire cascade of failures.

And he didn't.
lurker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:00 pm think of it this way for a moment. if the actor was pro-gun and familiar with their operation and the standard safety rules(say, for example, one of us here), would he be more or less at fault?
Exactly the same. How on earth does the level of responsibility change?
lurker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:00 pm would the incident have been more or less likely to happen?
That's not a trick question, is it? I'm an instructor. I believe that more education is gooder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Ylatkit wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:58 am
lurker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:00 pm it is my opinion that primary responsibility for this lies (not necessarily in any particular order) with: 1. the person who put the loaded gun on the prop table. 2. the person who loaded the gun. 3. the person who handed it to the actor and declared it cold without checking it. 4. the person(s) who allowed live ammo and shooting same on the set and 5. lastly, the actor (baldwin) who relied on the prior 4+ persons to follow established procedure and then pulled the trigger.
What if the person in number one didn't know it was loaded? What if the person in number two was told to load the gun? What if, what if, what if.

None of it makes yet-another-person-to-blame responsible.

There is one and only one person who could have prevented the whole shooting regardless of whatever chain of mistakes had taken place. The biggest problem with your list is that Baldwin still could have prevented the shooting in spite of the entire cascade of failures.

And he didn't.
lurker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:00 pm think of it this way for a moment. if the actor was pro-gun and familiar with their operation and the standard safety rules(say, for example, one of us here), would he be more or less at fault?
Exactly the same. How on earth does the level of responsibility change?
lurker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:00 pm would the incident have been more or less likely to happen?
That's not a trick question, is it? I'm an instructor. I believe that more education is gooder.
I agree regardless of all the other mistakes baldwin is the person who could have prevented this whole tragedy. I’m amazed at people bending over backwards to make excuses for baldwin. As an individual who was adamantly opposed to guns he should have known the risks and known safety protocols beyond the obviously faulty industry protocols. There’s a reason for this, it’s called elitism and privilege.
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Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Jaysus.

Baldwin is an actor, whose job in the movie is to point a gun at another actor and pull the trigger. This is a movie simulating a gun fight, so the usual 4 rules don’t apply. If you are never to point a gun at something you’re not willing to destroy, then you can never make a gunfight movie (without CGI). He can’t pull out every single bullet before every shot then figure out if it’s real or blank, that’s why the movie has several people whose jobs are exactly that.

In my job I often rely on tasks performed by other people with only minimum QC on my part. There is absolutely no way I can retest and re-evaluate every little thing that other people are getting paid highly for. If I have to do everything myself, then the other people are not necessary and should lose their jobs.

The biggest red flag to me is the nonchalant crew plinking with real ammo after hours. If I were the producer, I would insist that no live ammo can be on the set.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Stiff wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:54 am Jaysus.

The biggest red flag to me is the nonchalant crew plinking with real ammo after hours. If I were the producer, I would insist that no live ammo can be on the set.
DJD100 wrote:
sikacz wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:40 pm A gun is always loaded, I’ll be vindictive.
You're just being unfeeling and vindictive is all, because you don't approve of Baldwin's politics with regards to 2A stuff.
Let's see, I have a platoon in my Vietnam epic, maybe 50 AR's in total with multiple 30 round mags per each squad member, and you want all 50 ACTORS to unload and reload all of their mags, even though they likely aren't trained to do it as well as not being trained to recognize what ammo is in their mags, (blank, dummy, live round etc), instead of working on their real job which is acting, hitting their marks, doing the dialog and stunts etc. Forget about it...

...the armorer(s) and the AD's deal with the weapons and they're safety protocols, NOT the actors.
Yes and yes.

I bet most people cannot tell a dummy round from a live round either.
Everyone has a job on set. If fifty actors have to check weapons thats going to take a lot of time and money.

And besides, your not supposed to point directly at the person/s your shooting at, just the general direction!! And not at other people on set. I used to see that when I snuck on set at Old Tucson. When your up close you can tell they are not pointing directly at someone..

That could be Baldwins only fault.

And why did the directors stay within the direction of the shot zone we may never know.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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There are VERY valid reason to NOT allow an actor to safety check a weapon; there are at least two other people in the chain whose duty IS to check the safety of a weapon and any access after they check the weapon simply opens opportunities for mistakes and errors. The actors job is to follow directions.
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Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sig230 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:14 am There are VERY valid reason to NOT allow an actor to safety check a weapon; there are at least two other people in the chain whose duty IS to check the safety of a weapon and any access after they check the weapon simply opens opportunities for mistakes and errors. The actors job is to follow directions.
LIKE !!

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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As an outsider looking in, seems to me that actors/actresses are told what to do - go to make-up, go to wardrobe, show me different versions of how you could play that scene, action, cut... They belong to a union SAG-AFTRA and work along side other union occupations and everyone has a specific job and you don't cross lines. As one prop master said in an article I read, you don't move a box on set unless you have permission, it's very structured.

As YT and Stiff pointed out, an actor depends on others which is NOT how we look at firearms handling. I recall a question on the CA Firearms Safety Certificate test something to the effect that you check a handgun and make sure it's unloaded and set it on a table and walk out of the room. You later return and what is the first thing you do and the correct answer is to make sure it's unloaded. That's the way we think about firearms, safety first.

Crew members on the set of “Rust” believed that the lead bullet that fatally wounded cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on Thursday was supposed to be a dummy round, according to a search warrant affidavit filed by the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office on Wednesday and a Los Angeles Times interview with a crew member who was in the Western set’s church at the time of the shooting.

According to the affidavit, first assistant director Dave Halls told investigators that he did not check all the rounds in the gun before it was handed to actor and producer Alec Baldwin — a major breach of safety protocol.

Dummy rounds, which are sometimes used on sets, are designed to look like real bullets but contain no gunpowder. They can be used in close-up shots for effect.

According to a crew member, who asked not to be identified because they were not authorized to speak on record, the shot being rehearsed at the time of the shooting was intended to be a close-up that would show Baldwin’s hand and holster and look down the barrel of the revolver.

Dummy rounds can be used in shots where the camera is pointed down the barrel of a gun, because they appear almost identical to a real bullet. But dummies typically have a small hole drilled into them or there is an indentation showing that the primer at the rear of the casing has been punched and is inert.

According to the affidavit, armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed — who was in charge of overseeing gun safety and usage on set — said on the day of the incident, she had ensured that the ammunition intended for production were “dummies” and did not include “‘hot’ rounds.”

According to the affidavit, Gutierrez Reed also told investigators that live ammo was never kept on set. Investigators said Wednesday that they recovered roughly 500 rounds of ammunition from the set — a mixture of “blanks, dummy rounds and what we are suspecting were live rounds,” according to Santa Fe County Sheriff Adan Mendoza.

During lunch, Gutierrez Reed said, the firearms were secured in a safe with a combination on a white prop truck that only “a few people” have access to. But the ammunition was left on a cart during the meal and “not secured.”

Property master Sarah Zachry retrieved the firearms from the safe following lunch, Gutierrez Reed said. During filming, the armorer said, she gave the gun to Baldwin “a couple times” as well as to Halls.

Halls told investigators that his typical on-set safety protocol included him checking the gun barrel for “obstructions” before Gutierrez Reed opens the hatch of the weapon and spins its drum, the cylindrical rotating part of the gun that holds the rounds.

On the day of the incident, Halls told the detective, he thought he saw three rounds and acknowledged that “he should have checked all of them, but didn’t.” He also did not remember if Gutierrez Reed had spun the weapon’s drum.

According to an earlier affidavit filed by the Sheriff’s Office, Halls allegedly yelled “cold gun,” meaning the weapon was not loaded, as he was handing it to Baldwin. But the crew member remembers Gutierrez Reed as being the one to have pronounced the gun “cold.”

Dummy rounds require serious safety precautions because they more closely resemble an actual bullet than a blank does. Multiple film professionals familiar with weapons handling on film sets said guns loaded with dummy rounds are considered “cold” because they cannot fire.

But somehow a live bullet had been loaded into the gun, defying all gun handling and safety protocols. The shooting occurred when Baldwin was practicing removing the revolver from its holster and pointing it toward the camera, according to the earlier affidavit. Hutchins was fatally struck in the chest and director Joel Souza, who was behind her, was hit in the shoulder.

Authorities only confirmed on Wednesday morning that the round that fatally wounded Hutchins and also injured Souza was, in fact, a lead bullet. But the crew member, who was standing about a dozen feet away, said it was immediately clear to them in the aftermath of the shooting.

“There’s no way it was anything but a bullet that did this kind of damage,” the individual said, recalling how Hutchins “immediately dropped like a sack. ... I was looking right at her, I could see an exit wound that immediately started pouring blood.” The individual did not immediately realize that Souza had also been shot.

The person described the thought of having a live round on set as “so far off the realm of what’s wrong and bad. In this business, if you get caught on a location or a set with a single live ammunition round on a set that they’re doing guns, [and] they have armorers, you’re fired immediately.”
https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... n-shooting
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sig230 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:14 am There are VERY valid reason to NOT allow an actor to safety check a weapon; there are at least two other people in the chain whose duty IS to check the safety of a weapon and any access after they check the weapon simply opens opportunities for mistakes and errors. The actors job is to follow directions.
Yup.

Say you're a school bus driver. You rely on a team of mechanics to keep them brakes working because, while you've won many accolades for you bus driving prowess, you know fuck all about bus mechanics. The very last person you want fucking with the brakes prior to taking the wheel of a metal tube full of kids is the bus driver who admits he knows nothing about them despite handling one as his primary job. Yeah, the bus driver will do a brake check, but that's way different from determing if the brakes are loaded with hydraulic fluid and the compression system is up to snuff.

Yes, gun safety is critical. But expecting people to know everything about everything is not realistic. We rely on experts for a reason. Perhaps actors who use guns on set should be better trained. But relying on all the actors vs a select group of experts to check condition will likely lead to increased negligent discharges.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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featureless wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:13 pm
sig230 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:14 am There are VERY valid reason to NOT allow an actor to safety check a weapon; there are at least two other people in the chain whose duty IS to check the safety of a weapon and any access after they check the weapon simply opens opportunities for mistakes and errors. The actors job is to follow directions.
Yup.

Say you're a school bus driver. You rely on a team of mechanics to keep them brakes working because, while you've won many accolades for you bus driving prowess, you know fuck all about bus mechanics. The very last person you want fucking with the brakes prior to taking the wheel of a metal tube full of kids is the bus driver who admits he knows nothing about them despite handling one as his primary job. Yeah, the bus driver will do a brake check, but that's way different from determing if the brakes are loaded with hydraulic fluid and the compression system is up to snuff.

Yes, gun safety is critical. But expecting people to know everything about everything is not realistic. We rely on experts for a reason. Perhaps actors who use guns on set should be better trained. But relying on all the actors vs a select group of experts to check condition will likely lead to increased negligent discharges.
:thumbup:
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