Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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Seeing news reports that terrorism charges are being considered.

If that's the new response to mass shootings, we're going to see a lot of collateral prosecutions for "support." We're still lucky that despite the rhetoric, no one in DoJ was willing to go that route with BLM and Antifa last summer. If we ever let these reactionary jerks get their mitts on power again, they probably will.

Probably why DoJ is moving slow and careful on 1/6 - fear of establishing precedent.

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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wings wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:29 pm Seeing news reports that terrorism charges are being considered.

If that's the new response to mass shootings, we're going to see a lot of collateral prosecutions for "support." We're still lucky that despite the rhetoric, no one in DoJ was willing to go that route with BLM and Antifa last summer. If we ever let these reactionary jerks get their mitts on power again, they probably will.

Probably why DoJ is moving slow and careful on 1/6 - fear of establishing precedent.
Perhaps right. Certainly not rushing.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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sikacz wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:00 pm
wings wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:29 pm Seeing news reports that terrorism charges are being considered.

If that's the new response to mass shootings, we're going to see a lot of collateral prosecutions for "support." We're still lucky that despite the rhetoric, no one in DoJ was willing to go that route with BLM and Antifa last summer. If we ever let these reactionary jerks get their mitts on power again, they probably will.

Probably why DoJ is moving slow and careful on 1/6 - fear of establishing precedent.
Perhaps right. Certainly not rushing.
Wings, you might be right about the motivation for moving slow on 01/06. Unfortunately, if when the shoe is on the other foot (i.e., after the 2022 midterms) the Republicans won't show any restraint. Remember that Mueller's cautious approach just gave them carte blanche to go full tilt insane. The slow walk on 01/06 justice will give empower them the same way.

DoJ is moving slowly. Meanwhile, Americans don't care about what happened on 01/06 anymore.

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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cooper wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:18 pm
sikacz wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:00 pm
wings wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:29 pm Seeing news reports that terrorism charges are being considered.

If that's the new response to mass shootings, we're going to see a lot of collateral prosecutions for "support." We're still lucky that despite the rhetoric, no one in DoJ was willing to go that route with BLM and Antifa last summer. If we ever let these reactionary jerks get their mitts on power again, they probably will.

Probably why DoJ is moving slow and careful on 1/6 - fear of establishing precedent.
Perhaps right. Certainly not rushing.
Wings, you might be right about the motivation for moving slow on 01/06. Unfortunately, if when the shoe is on the other foot (i.e., after the 2022 midterms) the Republicans won't show any restraint. Remember that Mueller's cautious approach just gave them carte blanche to go full tilt insane. The slow walk on 01/06 justice will give empower them the same way.

DoJ is moving slowly. Meanwhile, Americans don't care about what happened on 01/06 anymore.
And again, I pretty much agree. No restraint when the republicans are back in power after 2022.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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sikacz wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:02 am While I don’t advocate mandated storage, I do agree there is a responsibility to keep guns out of the hands of children. The only time a minor should have a gun in their possession is under direct adult supervision. I could see charging the responsible adult with negligent homicide. Since being responsible doesn’t work perhaps the threat of jail time and becoming a felon might. Parents or guardians should be responsible for all actions of a minor.
Bingo. This is a law I could get behind. Don't need or want the government telling people how to store things in their home.

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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The parents of the 15-year-old charged in this week's deadly shooting at Michigan's Oxford High School were each charged Friday with four counts of homicide involuntary manslaughter.

"It's been a devastating week for us," Oakland County District Attorney Karen McDonald said at a press conference. "There are other individuals who contributed ... and it's my intention to hold them accountable as well."

In this rare instance of charging parents, prosecutors will try to prove that James and Jennifer Crumbley were criminally negligent and contributed to a dangerous situation that resulted in the deaths of four teenagers Tuesday.

McDonald said James Crumbley bought the gun four days before it was used in the shooting. His son, sophomore Ethan Crumbley, 15, was with him and later posted on social media about the gun, calling it "my new beauty."

Jennifer Crumbley also posted about the gun on social media, calling it "his new Christmas present," McDonald said. Those are among the chain of events that led up to the shooting, McDonald said.

Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said the boy could not legally own the gun or carry it to most places -- with rare exceptions such as shooting ranges.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/03/us/michi ... index.html

Another website said the handgun was a SIG SP2022 9mm.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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Good article which helps explain why the parents were charged in this case:

https://heavy.com/news/jennifer-crumbley-ethan-mom/

Pretty typical white middle-class Trump supporters rife with internal conflicts, experiencing some unfulfilled expectations, bought into lies about xenophobia.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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The U.S. Marshals and the Oakland County Fugitive Apprehension Team searched Friday night for the parents of Ethan Crumbley, the 15-year-old Oxford High sophomore charged with first-degree murder in the slayings of four students in Tuesday's mass shooting.

The search came hours after James and Jennifer Crumbley of Oxford were charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter in the deaths of those four students by Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald, who announced the charges at a noon press conference.

At one point Friday, authorities say each parent had stopped responding to their attorneys. "The action of fleeing and ignoring their attorney certainly adds weight to the charges," Oakland County Sheriff Mike Bouchard said in a statement. "They cannot run from their part in this tragedy.”

Several hours after the search began, the couple's lawyers, Shannon Smith and Mariell Lehman, said the husband and wife were returning to the area to be arraigned.

"On Thursday night, we contacted the Oakland County prosecutor to discuss this matter and to advise her that James and Jennifer Crumbley would be turning themselves in to be arraigned," Smith and Lehman told The Detroit News at mid-afternoon Friday. "Instead of communicating with us, the prosecutor held a press conference to announce charges.

"The Crumbleys left town on the night of the tragic shooting for their own safety. They are returning to the area to be arraigned. They are not fleeing from law enforcement despite recent comments in media reports."

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald announced Friday charges of four counts of involuntary manslaughter against James and Jennifer Crumbley connected to the Oxford High School shooting, in which their son is charged with four counts of first-degree murder, among other charges. But by Friday evening, federal marshals said they had "adopted the case of the search for James and Jennifer Crumbley" and would be working in conjunction with the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office.

The Crumbleys' case is charged in 52-3 District Court in Rochester Hills, and an arraignment was tentatively set for 4 p.m. Friday. But the court closed late Friday afternoon without any sightings of the Crumbleys. “Their attorney had assured us that if a decision was made to charge them, she would produce them for arrest,” Oakland County Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier Friday.

That agreement with attorney Smith was sometime in the morning, McCabe said around 2 p.m. Friday. “Our last conversation with the attorney was that she had been trying to reach them by phone and text, and they were not responding,” he said.

McCabe said Fugitive Apprehension Team officers were out searching for the couple as of mid-afternoon Friday. The Crumbleys own a 2021 black Kia Seltos with the license plate DQG5203 and a 2019 white Kia Soul with the license plate DZH8994, according to the sheriff's office and Secretary of State records.

McCabe said a conversation with law enforcement was initiated by the parents' attorney Friday morning when it was announced the prosecutor was holding a press conference to announce whether a decision had been made to charge anyone else in the deaths.

“We didn’t even know they had been charged with anything until we were informed this morning by the media,” McCabe said.

McDonald's office didn't respond to a request for comment. But the prosecutor defended how the charges were pursued during a CNN Friday night interview. “The prosecutor’s office doesn’t arrest people,” McDonald told CNN host Anderson Cooper.

A day and a half before the press conference, McDonald said she asked an assistant prosecutor if police had “eyes” on the parental suspects. She said she was told police knew where the Crumbleys were. “They will be apprehended, one way or another,” McDonald said.

Late Friday night, McCabe pushed back against the prosecutor's claims. McCabe said his office was not contacted by an assistant prosecutor on Thursday, and at no time did the department indicate to prosecutors that "eyes" on the Crumbleys.

The prosecutor earlier laid out numerous reasons for her decision, including the father’s purchase of the handgun, which was a Christmas gift for their son, and a meeting at the school in which they were shown a graphic drawing made by their son depicting a shooting victim. Each count is punishable by up to 15 years in prison.

“I have spoken to (victims’ parents) and indicated what charges were coming,” McDonald said at her Friday noon press conference. “These parents are deep in grief.

“I have tremendous compassion and empathy for parents with children who are struggling, for whatever reason,” she added. “But the facts in this case are so egregious. The notion that a parent could read those words, and also know their son had access to a deadly weapon.”

The Crumbleys' son, Ethan, has been charged as an adult with one count of terrorism causing death, four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to murder and 12 counts of possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony. He faces up to life in prison without parole if convicted.

Scott Weinberg, a former Macomb County assistant prosecutor and a longtime Oakland County defense attorney, said Friday that “attorneys have just so much power” and cannot compel the presence of a client. “As an attorney, you’re their adviser,” Weinberg said, "not their keeper.”

“Sometimes, people get scared,” he added. “They begin to wrap up personal affairs, they pay the mortgage, just so they don’t have to do it from jail.”

Arrangements for clients to turn themselves in make sense both for police, who can avoid a manhunt, and for the suspect, Weinberg said. Clients who turn themselves in willingly might get a favorable bond at their arraignment, he said. “When and if they are picked up now, it’ll be hard to make that argument with a judge,” Weinberg said. “They might not get the reasonable bond they could’ve gotten.”

Weinberg has had clients who did not show up to surrender themselves. “That happens all the time,” Weinberg said.

William Winters, a 38-year veteran defense attorney in Detroit, said such arrangements are “not generally” made in homicide cases.

“Police usually want a time and location, either at the police station or the courthouse,” when suspects surrender, Winters said.

A defense attorney “can’t” know if their client will honor the arrangement, he said.

“I’d want to be with the defendant in that case,” Winters said, to ensure a safe arrest.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... 855814002/
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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The Prosecutor is rushing this through, no doubt she's hearing from constituents in Oakland County. McDonald is a former Circuit Court judge who handled Family Court.
The parents of the suspect in a shooting at Oxford High School in Michigan that left four students dead this week are facing involuntary manslaughter charges in those deaths. Legal experts were quick to point out that such charges are far from the norm -- it is James and Jennifer Crumbley's 15-year-old son, Ethan, who is accused of pulling the trigger and killing four of his fellow high school students.

"It's exceptionally unusual," said Cassandra Crifasi, deputy director of Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Violence and Research. "We rarely hold people accountable for giving someone a gun who shouldn't have one." But it's the alleged egregiousness of the couple's behavior that appears to have led to the charges.
"These are extraordinary charges," said CNN legal analyst Areva Martin. "We know that prosecutors have been reluctant to charge parents in these school shooting cases, even though in some cases, like the Crumbley cases today, parents seem to have some responsibility."

Their defense attorneys will have to "show that these parents acted responsibly," Martin said, adding it is "an uphill battle for this defense team." There are no safe gun storage laws in Michigan, the prosecutor said. "We are not legally required to store your weapon in a safe manner," she said.

That could be a stumbling point for the prosecution, Charles Coleman Jr., a former prosecutor, told CNN's Jake Tapper. "Quite frankly, I don't think that the prosecution is going to have a strong case with them regarding any of the gun possession laws in and of themselves, at least not against the parents." But because the involuntary charges don't require intent, "I think the prosecution stands to make some ground and get some traction," with those charges, Coleman said.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/03/us/paren ... index.html

We'll see what the jury thinks.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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Often more information comes out on these things as time goes on, and often enough we don't get the true facts until trial. Once something blows up into being a cause celebre for some faction or another the facts of the matter are the first thing pushed out the window. That said it's certainly sounding as if the parents had more culpability than a firearm not being locked up.

In my state it's legal for kids of any age to have long guns in their possession and to shoot them (but not hunt). My guns are all in the safe not because I worry about my teens but because I worry about thieves and kids over visiting my teens.

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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I agree tagsoup, we only know what the sheriff and prosecutor have released so far. The Crumbley's have a child with problems and they didn't deal with them and they are liable for the gun and there will be civil lawsuits. I think the school is lying about Ethan not being bullied, they don't want the liability. Oakland County is the wealthiest county in Michigan and I'm sure that McDonald the prosecutor has higher political ambitions like AG or governor and this case could be her ticket. And at the center are four grieving families who are suffering.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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Don't forget Electionfuhrer Herr Karl Rove, who killed campaign decorum and factual debate.

The kid supposedly wasn't bullied, and the mom identified the Sig as the kid's present, plus she texted that she wasn't mad at the kid when he was caught searching for ammo in class via his phone, or drawing pics of guns and dead people in class etc, rather she told him he should learn how to not get caught.

Later when news if the shooting hit the news, the dad called 911 and said his kid might be the shooter.

Too bad for all, and I wonder if the kid grew up playing desensitizing violent video games since he was in diapers?

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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I'm not defending the parents, they were terrible. James Crumley is his birth father, but Jennifer Crumley is his step mother and it appears she was trying to be a friend to him not a parent. When the sheriff finishes collecting all the witness statements and the defense reviews them, hopefully we'll find out what set him off.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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CDFingers wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:02 pm Collected links. Parents apparently are not good people. They knew.

https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/ ... _shooting/

CDFingers
Once again, this kid is very troubled. And all the hints and clues were in plain sight. BUT...he'll be convicted and sent to prison for the rest of his life. I have no answers and really feel for the victims and their families but...sending a very sick kid to jail for life.....

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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F4FEver wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:32 am
CDFingers wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:02 pm Collected links. Parents apparently are not good people. They knew.

https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/ ... _shooting/

CDFingers
Once again, this kid is very troubled. And all the hints and clues were in plain sight. BUT...he'll be convicted and sent to prison for the rest of his life. I have no answers and really feel for the victims and their families but...sending a very sick kid to jail for life.....

The prosecutor already decided to charge him as an adult with four counts of first degree murder, because it was planned plus terrorism charges. Yup he'll probably never see the outside of a prison if convicted on those charges by the jury. His lawyer could challenge his being tried as an adult or try a diminished capacity defense or whatever Michigan calls it. Four innocent lives were taken, no one can turn back the clock.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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Age restrictions understand that a fifteen year old can't judge whether to kill someone. Of course, those regulations don't ensure a parent will do the right thing. But making regulations like that and promoting their spread is a way of fertilizing the culture with the correct ideas. A fifteen year old can't even legally drive a two ton metal missile around town without supervision. So there is logic to choke magats with. I meant argue with.

CDFingers
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They say that Cain caught Abel rollin' loaded dice
Ace of Spades behind his ear and him not thinkin' twice

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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Oakland County, MI is a blue county, Biden won by 14 points in 2020.
The Michigan high school student accused of fatally shooting four classmates had numerous conversations with school counselors in the day and hours before the shooting, before staff sent him back to class despite finding images of bullets on his phone and disturbing drawings at his desk, the superintendent told parents in a detailed letter.

Those conversations will be part of an independent investigation into the school’s actions, the superintendent of Oxford Community Schools, Tim Throne, said. In a lengthy note to families on Saturday, Throne said he had requested that an investigation be done by an independent security consultant “so we leave no stone unturned” after concerns were raised that the school did not do enough before the shooting to stop the rampage.

The email also detailed the school’s account of the events preceding the shooting, which took place on Tuesday and left four dead and seven injured. The day earlier, 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley was found by a teacher to be viewing images of bullets on his phone during class. When questioned by a counselor and another staff member, Crumbley said he and his mother had recently gone to a shooting range and that shooting was a family hobby. The next day, Throne wrote, his parents confirmed his account.

The morning of the shooting, a teacher noticed drawings and writings allegedly done by Crumbley and reported them to school counselors and the dean of students. Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald described a violent drawing that included the words, “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” “Blood everywhere” was scrawled next to a drawing of a bullet, and a sketch of a bloody figure with two gunshot wounds was also found.

Crumbley was brought to the guidance counselor’s office, where he said the drawings were merely “part of a video game he was designing," Throne said in the note. Crumbley told counselors that he wanted to pursue video game design as a career.

Crumbley’s parents were summoned to the school, and while waiting for them, he stayed in the office for an hour and a half, Throne wrote, “while counselors continued to observe, analyze and speak with” him.

Once they arrived, his parents were informed that they were to seek counseling for him within 48 hours or the school would contact Child Protective Services. His parents refused to take him home and left, leading counselors to send him back to class “rather than sent home to an empty house," Throne wrote.

Despite the graphic drawings and the episode the day prior, “at no time did counselors believe the student might harm others based on his behavior, responses and demeanor, which appeared calm," Throne said. The matter was not brought to the school’s principal or assistant principal, and “remained at the guidance counselor level,” he said.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation, in a threat assessment of school shooters, said that “the path toward violence is an evolutionary one, with signposts along the way.” One such signpost: “fantasies of destruction or revenge,” including in drawings. According to the American Psychological Association, “access to or fascination with weapons, especially guns” can be signs of potential violence “and may escalate or contribute to the risk of violence.”

Crumbley has been charged with four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to murder and 12 counts of possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony, in addition to one count of “terrorism causing death.” His parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, have been charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.

The revelations in recent days that counselors at the school were aware of the troubling indicators but allowed Crumbley to return to class have fueled anger in the small Michigan community still reeling from the tragedy.

“So many missed opportunities,” Casey Smith, 45, whose 14-year-old daughter survived the shooting, told The Washington Post. “It’s such a letdown. It’s unforgivable,” he said. “I know it wasn’t malice ... but incompetence is not an excuse when it comes to something like that."

Throne said that the concerns were “understandable” but defended the counselors, writing that they had “made a judgment based on their professional training and clinical experience and did not have all the facts we now know.”

He also appeared to place blame on Crumbley’s parents.

The couple “never advised the school district that he had direct access to a firearm or that they had recently purchased a firearm for him," Throne said, adding that the parents were present when Crumbley was asked “specific probing questions” about whether he would harm himself or others.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... -crumbley/

Now it's the blame game. It's a wealthy county, parents are more involved.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 3 killed, 6 hurt in shooting at Michigan high school

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Locked-Up 'Sullen' Crumbley Family Showing No Remorse After School Shooting, Says Sheriff

Suspected Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley along with his parents, who were arrested early Saturday while hiding in a warehouse, have expressed “no remorse,” after an attack that killed four high school students, Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said on MSNBC.

“We’ve not seen any remorse” from James and Jennifer Crumbley and their 15-year-old son, said Bouchard, who described the family as “obviously sullen,” adding: “Not a lot of conversation.”

“I don’t know whether the sullenness is from being caught or whether it’s from other emotions that are going on, but they haven’t expressed it to us,” Bouchard told host Alex Witt hours after the parents were arrested.

Police said the parents were arrested in Detroit about 40 minutes south of their home after withdrawing $4,000 from an ATM. They were facing charges of involuntary manslaughter for failing to take action that might have prevented their son’s shooting.

The sheriff said at a news conference Saturday that investigators believe someone helped James and Jennifer Crumbley flee and hide after warrants were issued for their arrest.

Ethan Crumbley was charged as an adult Wednesday with murder, attempted murder and terrorism causing death after the deadly shooting Tuesday at his Oxford High School. Seven people were also injured in the attack.

Crumbley’s parents pleaded not guilty Saturday to four counts of involuntary manslaughter after Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald accused them of failing to secure the firearm used in the shooting, and ignoring clear warning signs conveyed by the school hours before the attack.

That day, after the school had warned his parents, Ethan Crumbley emerged from a school bathroom allegedly firing a 9 mm Sig Sauer pistol that McDonald said Crumbley’s father had purchased with him just over a week ago.

Bouchard told Witt Saturday that “obviously his parents had to purchase” the ammunition.

The parents and son have been placed on suicide watch as a precaution, even though none of them has given any indication they would harm themselves, Bouchard said.

They’re all being held separately, in isolation, and it’s unlikely Ethan Crumbley even knows his parents have been arrested, according to Bouchard.

Judge Julie Nicholson, who agreed with prosecutors that the couple were a flight risk, imposed a $500,000 bond for each of the parents and mandated GPS monitoring.

The Crumbleys’ attorneys had argued that their clients did not intend to flee, and planned to turn themselves in on Saturday.

Bouchard said at the news conference that an investigation is continuing concerning an individual suspected of helping the Crumbleys evade police, and that charges could be filed for either “aiding and abetting” fugitives, or “obstruction of justice.”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/james-je ... 98af21f36a

Didn't plan to flee my ass. Pull 4K out from an ATM and go hide in a warehouse closer to the Canadian border. They don't give a damn about anybody but themselves.
Last edited by TrueTexan on Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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