Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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tonguengroover wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:16 am Ok who wants run around in front of the poor old decrepit guy who just came from walmart, assaulted a store guard with a deadly weapon who may also have a gun , raise your hand!
Bzzzt! "May also have a gun" is pure speculation based on zero evidence. If you are going to go there then you can justify shooting literally every person you encounter in public.
98+ recreational uses of firearms
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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DJD100 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:44 am Police shoot 61 year old white male armed with a knife while confined to a motorized wheel chair, 8 times in the back and sides, with the ninth to the head, all for shoplifting a tool box and threatening the store security guy with a knife (while confined to the wheelchair etc, so not a lot of threat there unless the guy attempted to get up out of the wheel chair which he never did).

https://tucson.com/news/local/watch-now ... in-article

https://www.newsweek.com/tucson-police- ... ir-1654733

TPD has fired the shooter, and it sounds like murder charges are next to me...
Good..and cops wonder why people yell ACAB at them...

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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tonguengroover wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:36 pm
TrueTexan wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:27 pm BTW that isn't a store owned powered shopping cart. That is a standard powered wheelchair that can easily be made immobile.
Realized that but still lots of people can lunge out off a wheelchair and stab you.
And the guy was an ex con with a long rap sheet. He wasn't just a poor ole decrepit old man. He knew better.
Also the Leo sad he didn't have time and or distance and more stopped him from using his taser or spray.
-He wasn't lunging out of the wheelchair..he was sitting in it moving at very c slow speed
-It doesn't matter if the guy had a long rap sheet or was an excon. He was executed because he wouldn't listen to the cop.
The deceased geezer appeared to be holding a pack of smokes and a phone when shot in the back and sides/head
-Complete BS..time or distance? The guy wasn't holding a knife, was in a wheelcair, hardly moving and the cop didn't have the time or distance? BS
Ok who wants run around in front of the poor old decrepit guy who just came from walmart, assaulted a store guard with a deadly weapon who may also have a gun , raise your hand!
That's what LEO are trained for, aren't they? Not stand behind an old guy in a wheelchair who isn't threatening anybody, and execute him for not listening...

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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-Ok who wants run around in front of the poor old decrepit guy who just came from walmart, assaulted a store guard with a deadly weapon who may also have a gun , raise your hand!
[/quote]
F4FEver wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:59 am
That's what LEO are trained for, aren't they? Not stand behind an old guy in a wheelchair who isn't threatening anybody, and execute him for not listening...

That was a yes or no question. I think LEO's shouldn't be dumb and unnecessarily risk their lives by putting themselves out in the open in front of a person who just committed assault with a deadly weapon.

Also hard to hit someone with a taser through the back of a wheelchair.

Not sure why idiots disregard officers commands. I'm just gonna call this suicide by cop.
"The Worst Monsters are the ones we create. We are the monsters"

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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Tonguendgroover is correct insofar as this was apparently suicide by cop. Whether the old man intentionally wanted to go out in a blaze of glory or just hated his wheelchair bound existence and unconsciously wanted to be “liberated” from his life, the result can still be the same. And the responsibility would lay squarely on his shoulders if he alone had the power to carry through his intent.

He did not.

So the issue here clearly is not the old man’s intent. The intent of someone to do harm to himself or others are less relevant when the individual lacks the power or ability to carry out such intentions. At best we can say the old man actually desired to take a toolbox from a store without paying for it. And then he made a ruckus (as old folks sometimes do if suffering some form of dementia) when told he won’t be allowed to leave and that police had been called. The shooting police officer inserted his power into the shoplifting conflict. Now the entire situation takes on a different dimension. A sudden surge of power, energy, and even agency has been added to the conflict with the introduction of a gun and a badge. And with that power comes responsibility.

What we are debating is whether the shooting officer was rational or sane in his decision to execute the old man in order to stop him from stealing or harming others. Did he fulfill his responsibilities? This is the agency part of the conflict: the officer’s decision to use a gun. We are questioning the shooting officer’s choices here. For my part I did not (will not) watch the video evidence. But based on my trust of others on this board, it appears that the shooting seems totally unjustified.

See, if the shooting officer also harmed a bystander rather than just the old shoplifter every rational person would probably say the officer was crazy or at least severely incompetent in fulfilling his duties. In this case the TPD themselves have determined the officer’s actions were unwarranted and unprofessional based on their own policies. They make zero defense of this shooting and have already fired the offending officer. What rational argument remains then for individuals to try to defend his actions as OK?

The man who pulled the trigger deserves a fair trial and then probably to be removed from society for a spell to reflect on his choices. That is the power and responsibility of the State.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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I think its reasonable that it wasn't suicide by cop. I think any REASONABLE person would see that he really posed no threat to life in the presence of 4 officers. I think its reasonable the victim could presume that while he is being difficult and obstinate, he wasn't really a lethal threat...I think that's a reasonable assumption.

Because you can, doesn't mean you should. This officer appears to me as someone who really wanted to kill someone.

Like I said, I used to disarm wheelchair bound patients all the time, and not once did I ever hurt myself, a bystander, or the patient. And not once was I armed, or had 4 cops with me.

This was murder.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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If and when it gets to court, Ryan Remington's (the ex cop) lawyer will have to show that Remington felt that the man was such a threat to him and to others, that it justified the use of deadly force. Remington and the other cops could have thrown some of those bags of fertilizer in front of Richards (the perp) and on top of Richards to stop him, there were many ways without using deadly force. They could have tasered him from behind or the side and taken the knife.

The police chief said that Remington
...who had patrolled the aforementioned shopping center on "special duty assignment, basically a security detail,"....
I think Remington felt empowered that he had to protect the mall businesses and its customers, that he was the last line of defense and he saw Richards as far more of a threat than he was.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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tonguengroover wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:16 pm I think. You think.
A fair trial?
That won't be happening here after the mayor said it was "undefensible" and police chief for all intents and purposes said the same.
Remingtons lawyer already caught on to that.
Oh yeah, the mayor and most of the city council are dems. Even the chief.
I think the Mayor and Police Chief are fully justified in their comments. It doesn't really matter what they think. If they feel they can't a fair trial in that jurisdiction, then they can change venue; happens all the time. I see this as ZERO impediment to a fair trial.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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tonguengroover wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:01 am
-Ok who wants run around in front of the poor old decrepit guy who just came from walmart, assaulted a store guard with a deadly weapon who may also have a gun , raise your hand!
F4FEver wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:59 am
That's what LEO are trained for, aren't they? Not stand behind an old guy in a wheelchair who isn't threatening anybody, and execute him for not listening...
That was a yes or no question. I think LEO's shouldn't be dumb and unnecessarily risk their lives by putting themselves out in the open in front of a person who just committed assault with a deadly weapon.

Also hard to hit someone with a taser through the back of a wheelchair.

Not sure why idiots disregard officers commands. I'm just gonna call this suicide by cop.
I agree but this guy in the WHEELCHAIR wasn't a threat in any way. The LEO WAS dumb, executed this guy and should be arrested. Every instance is different. To paint this the same as some guy, standing, running, with a knife, towards a LEO or some civilian is wrong..
Last edited by F4FEver on Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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tonguengroover wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:16 pm I think. You think.
A fair trial?
That won't be happening here after the mayor said it was "undefensible" and police chief for all intents and purposes said the same.
Remingtons lawyer already caught on to that.
Oh yeah, the mayor and most of the city council are dems. Even the chief.
And if they were all GOP then the cop's execution of the guy in the wheelchair would be fine and dandy..ehh?

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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The Tucson police chief and mayor made those statements about a former employee, it's not like personnel actions against Remington were pending, they already fired him. I agree with FS, Remington's lawyer could request a change of venue, the case could go to Maricopa County or Pinal County. State law governs change of venue requests.

Chris Magnus the police chief is Biden's nominee to be commissioner of Customs and Border Protection. He's awaiting confirmation hearings.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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FrontSight wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:46 pm I think the Mayor and Police Chief are fully justified in their comments. It doesn't really matter what they think. If they feel they can't a fair trial in that jurisdiction, then they can change venue; happens all the time. I see this as ZERO impediment to a fair trial.
No, he was tried and convicted by his superiors in the news before any investigation or trial.

I just mentioned they were Dems cuz you know, they are not LEO lovers here.

When the geezer pulled a knife he was a threat to everyone around him. If he had no weapon I would be on his side. Still, y'all don't realize or intentionally ignoring the fact that many people in wheelchair/scooters are not totally incapacitated.
Last edited by tonguengroover on Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The Worst Monsters are the ones we create. We are the monsters"

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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Nobody on this forum was on site at the shooting to actually see what happened, so nobody here knows what happened. Fortunately , nobody here will be on the jury. I wish the elected officials would shut their mouths until after an investigation was completed but lately, the elected types seem to prefer throwing the cops under a bus immediately to appease the loud people. I believe Minneapolis would have avoided riots by suspending the four cops and calling out the guard immediately while conducting a thorough investigation . Maybe even calling the feds in. Like it or not, the elected ones duty also includes protecting the rights of cops and announcing "guilty as charged" before an investigation brings charges is not their job . When the knife came out, it ceased being a shoplifting case. I hate trial by media.

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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True enough we were not there, we know only what has been shown. From my perspective it doesn’t look good for the ex-officer. I’m not in favor of these media saturated trails, pre, during or after. It should be enough to report an incident briefly when it happens without extensive explanation and detail then a report after on the verdict and the jury’s decision. End of coverage. Only two reports needed. Jury selection would be much simpler with less coverage. We the public really don’t need to debate these, but like with anything posted, people will respond with their impressions. My impression of this one is not favorable. Indeed it will be up to a jury to decide.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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DougB1946 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:36 am Nobody on this forum was on site at the shooting to actually see what happened, so nobody here knows what happened. Fortunately , nobody here will be on the jury. I wish the elected officials would shut their mouths until after an investigation was completed but lately, the elected types seem to prefer throwing the cops under a bus immediately to appease the loud people. I believe Minneapolis would have avoided riots by suspending the four cops and calling out the guard immediately while conducting a thorough investigation . Maybe even calling the feds in. Like it or not, the elected ones duty also includes protecting the rights of cops and announcing "guilty as charged" before an investigation brings charges is not their job . When the knife came out, it ceased being a shoplifting case. I hate trial by media.
There are multiple videos and eye-witnesses, including the other cops on scene. This guy used deadly force for no real reason, when he should have used less-lethal alternatives (OC Spray in this case). That is a crime the last time I looked! AFAIK the victim never actually tried to stab the security guard, just showed him the knife as he approached etc.

The knife was not out in the cop's presence AFAIK, rather it was merely shown to the store security guard when he attempted to stop the victim/thief from leaving with a toolbox, all before the first cops were on scene.

Yes, displaying the knife was brandishing, and the victim needed to be arrested for that and theft no doubt, though that in itself was no reason for the cop to shoot the guy 9 times including a head shot, when the knife was not even in the victim's hands at the time (it was either put away of on his lap perhaps, as he was holding his phone and a pack of smokes when shot AFAIK).

If the victim had attempted to stab the cop then "maybe" the cop would've had a defense for nine rounds including a head shot, but he didn't.

I'm pro-blue as well, but sometimes some of them unfortunately are wrong (bad day, bias, adrenaline etc, etc, etc...), and this is one of those cases as it was with Floyd's murder.

The video evidence is over-whelming, guilty will be the verdict if there's a fair trial, and the only question remaining is to what charge(s)?

Likely a man-slaughter conviction is my guess...

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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Our biggest problem as a society today is a large percentage of people who think cops can do no wrong (because they’re part of the demographics who cops tend to treat with deference), and a large percentage who think cops are always corrupt (because they’re part of the demographics not receiving the benefit of the doubt).

The truth is somewhere in the middle. I fully understand that a cop’s job is often hard and dangerous, so I understand that sometimes they need to shoot people. However, they should not have the impunity to shoot and kill for the slightest provocations.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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Stiff wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:44 pm Our biggest problem as a society today is a large percentage of people who think cops can do no wrong (because they’re part of the demographics who cops tend to treat with deference), and a large percentage who think cops are always corrupt (because they’re part of the demographics not receiving the benefit of the doubt).

The truth is somewhere in the middle. I fully understand that a cop’s job is often hard and dangerous, so I understand that sometimes they need to shoot people. However, they should not have the impunity to shoot and kill for the slightest provocations.
I recall seeing statistics that law enforcement is not the most dangerous job far from it. I know you did not say most just dangerous. I don’t think it’s good to condone police shooting people by accepting “that sometimes they need to shoot people”. That’s a comfort zone they don’t need to have.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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sikacz wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:24 am
Stiff wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:44 pm Our biggest problem as a society today is a large percentage of people who think cops can do no wrong (because they’re part of the demographics who cops tend to treat with deference), and a large percentage who think cops are always corrupt (because they’re part of the demographics not receiving the benefit of the doubt).

The truth is somewhere in the middle. I fully understand that a cop’s job is often hard and dangerous, so I understand that sometimes they need to shoot people. However, they should not have the impunity to shoot and kill for the slightest provocations.
I recall seeing statistics that law enforcement is not the most dangerous job far from it. I know you did not say most just dangerous. I don’t think it’s good to condone police shooting people by accepting “that sometimes they need to shoot people”. That’s a comfort zone they don’t need to have.
America is a country where criminals have easy access to guns, and some of these people are dangerous enough to be shot. That’s just a fact. However, I do feel that the law and the court have gone too lenient and trusting toward police who shoot people. The court went out of its way to create a doctrine of “qualified immunity” for cops, which is not written anywhere as law.

I think it has created an environment where cops tend to shoot first and ask questions later, whenever any weapon is involved. And today it’s no secret that if you shoot somebody you better make sure they’re dead, otherwise they’ll testify against you.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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Stiff wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:23 pm
sikacz wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:24 am
Stiff wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:44 pm Our biggest problem as a society today is a large percentage of people who think cops can do no wrong (because they’re part of the demographics who cops tend to treat with deference), and a large percentage who think cops are always corrupt (because they’re part of the demographics not receiving the benefit of the doubt).

The truth is somewhere in the middle. I fully understand that a cop’s job is often hard and dangerous, so I understand that sometimes they need to shoot people. However, they should not have the impunity to shoot and kill for the slightest provocations.
I recall seeing statistics that law enforcement is not the most dangerous job far from it. I know you did not say most just dangerous. I don’t think it’s good to condone police shooting people by accepting “that sometimes they need to shoot people”. That’s a comfort zone they don’t need to have.
America is a country where criminals have easy access to guns, and some of these people are dangerous enough to be shot. That’s just a fact. However, I do feel that the law and the court have gone too lenient and trusting toward police who shoot people. The court went out of its way to create a doctrine of “qualified immunity” for cops, which is not written anywhere as law.

I think it has created an environment where cops tend to shoot first and ask questions later, whenever any weapon is involved. And today it’s no secret that if you shoot somebody you better make sure they’re dead, otherwise they’ll testify against you.
I don’t disagree.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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Even if the old an had a knife and was waving it around, just stay back about 4 to 5 feet and you are out of any danger of being cut or stabbed. Also I wonder if the person had mild dementia and/or hearing deficits.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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F4FEver wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:53 am
TrueTexan wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:53 pm Even if the old an had a knife and was waving it around, just stay back about 4 to 5 feet and you are out of any danger of being cut or stabbed. Also I wonder if the person had mild dementia and/or hearing deficits.
UN-redacted video here..execution by cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mghr0nxl67o
Well you can see him headed right for a female employee.

Hey, gotta stop the threat. Thats how cops are trained. It's on the douchebag who pulled out a deadly weapon.
"The Worst Monsters are the ones we create. We are the monsters"

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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tonguengroover wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:55 pm
F4FEver wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:53 am
TrueTexan wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:53 pm Even if the old an had a knife and was waving it around, just stay back about 4 to 5 feet and you are out of any danger of being cut or stabbed. Also I wonder if the person had mild dementia and/or hearing deficits.
UN-redacted video here..execution by cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mghr0nxl67o
Well you can see him headed right for a female employee.

Hey, gotta stop the threat. Thats how cops are trained. It's on the douchebag who pulled out a deadly weapon.
Sorry, he didn't have anything but smokes and a cell phone in his hands. 'Gotta stop the threat? What 'threat'?..trundling up the ramp at 1 MPH..?? Execution by cop for an old guy who wouldn't listen to a cop..

Re: Shooting of Shoplifting Suspect in Wheelchair

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F4FEver wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:12 am
tonguengroover wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:55 pm
F4FEver wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:53 am
TrueTexan wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:53 pm Even if the old an had a knife and was waving it around, just stay back about 4 to 5 feet and you are out of any danger of being cut or stabbed. Also I wonder if the person had mild dementia and/or hearing deficits.
UN-redacted video here..execution by cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mghr0nxl67o
Well you can see him headed right for a female employee.

Hey, gotta stop the threat. Thats how cops are trained. It's on the douchebag who pulled out a deadly weapon.
Sorry, he didn't have anything but smokes and a cell phone in his hands. 'Gotta stop the threat? What 'threat'?..trundling up the ramp at 1 MPH..?? Execution by cop for an old guy who wouldn't listen to a cop..
Still has the knife on him right? How long does it take to pull a knife?

Here's a scenario. Your ten feet away from someone, your armed with your gun in your holster, if that person attacks you with a knife can you pull your weapon in time to shoot him before you get stabbed?
"The Worst Monsters are the ones we create. We are the monsters"

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