Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:04 pm
Stiff wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:55 pm The Assistant Director also claimed that Baldwin didn’t pull the trigger, that his finger was outside the trigger guard the whole time.

https://people.com/movies/rust-assistan ... l-trigger/

It’s hard for me to believe that Baldwin didn’t pull the trigger, but with another witness confirming it, I suppose it’s possible. After all, they’re dealing with an old revolver here, not a modern handgun with multiple safeties that make it impossible to fire without pulling the trigger.
Still something human caused that hammer to drop perhaps not intentionally. It’s obvious he was pointing the weapon directly at the person shot. That is definitely on him. I’d have more respect for him if he just said, guns are dangerous and I made careless mistakes.
Absolutely. A human caused this no matter what. I've had one negligent discharge (also with a single action revolver), but muzzle was pointed straight at the ground and no injury or damage occurred. Shook me up completely, though. An unexpected discharge of a 357 magnum can make you need to change your shorts. Spent a long time going over my mistakes and correcting my practices. Then practiced over and over again with an empty revolver.

Solid reminder that the 4 rules protect humans from their own stupidity, giving you a chance to learn to be better next time.

And I now repeat sika's phrase as my confession: "Guns are dangerous, and I made careless mistakes."

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:04 pm
Stiff wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:55 pm The Assistant Director also claimed that Baldwin didn’t pull the trigger, that his finger was outside the trigger guard the whole time.

https://people.com/movies/rust-assistan ... l-trigger/

It’s hard for me to believe that Baldwin didn’t pull the trigger, but with another witness confirming it, I suppose it’s possible. After all, they’re dealing with an old revolver here, not a modern handgun with multiple safeties that make it impossible to fire without pulling the trigger.
Still something human caused that hammer to drop perhaps not intentionally. It’s obvious he was pointing the weapon directly at the person shot. That is definitely on him. I’d have more respect for him if he just said, guns are dangerous and I made careless mistakes.
He can’t say he made a mistake, because the gun having a real ammo was not his mistake.

I used to play airsoft, and the gun looks extremely similar to a real one. I positively point and shoot at people with it, because I fully expect them to be hit only with plastic bb pellets. If I rented an airsoft gun and the guy switched it with a real one, back then I might not notice the difference right away, probably not until I shot someone with it.

In my opinion Baldwin is not culpable in any way, because he fully relied on the movie armorer to hand him a safe gun, not a live one.

Gun safety rules do not apply to non guns.

An airsoft gun looks extremely similar to a gun, but it’s built from the ground up as a sport instrument to shoot people with. Many prop guns start as real guns, but a well paid armorer is always on set to make sure they only look real, and not fire live ammo.

Are you gonna chastise everyone playing airsoft because they break safety rules?
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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I don’t really care for airsoft, but then again this was not about using an airsoft gun. It was a real gun used as “prop” in a movie. Also, I’ve said it before, anyone who touches a gun is responsible for safety checking it and following the four rules. I don’t care if it takes more time and upsets the director or costs more money and delays. We’re talking about safety and human life. There’s no exceptions with gun use. As for airsoft, it numbs your sensitivity and gets you accustomed to pointing weapons at people. It’s not necessarily in training to shoot. I don’t get a thrill out of pointing a weapon and pulling a trigger at anyone even one that is supposedly a “toy”.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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From what I've read, the cinematographer focused her camera on the barrel and the loaded bullets in the cylinder, almost a straight on shot. That would have called for dummy bullets in the revolver not blanks and they would have been indistinguishable from a live round. This still goes back to the armorer, the prop master and the AD.

Read that Baldwin hired additional lawyers because of civil lawsuits that have been filed.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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highdesert wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:07 am From what I've read, the cinematographer focused her camera on the barrel and the loaded bullets in the cylinder, almost a straight on shot. That would have called for dummy bullets in the revolver not blanks and they would have been indistinguishable from a live round. This still goes back to the armorer, the prop master and the AD.

Read that Baldwin hired additional lawyers because of civil lawsuits that have been filed.
All that will be up to a jury. Personally I believe in something not practiced in this country, proportional guilt. Meaning when two parties or more are involved in a legal action, it’s possible all parties share some percentage of guilt. I believe there are many guilty parties in this incident and baldwin is not guilt free from my perspective. The entertainment industry standards of practice may save him from the worst charges, but he wouldn’t want me on his jury. In my opinion the industry standards are wrong.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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With today's technology I would even question why a person has to stand behind a camera in a situation like this. I have a device that almost 20 years ago was able to remotely control much of my Cannon EOS SLR camera. The technology today can control the cameras remotely thus allowing the operator to control the camera safely.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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TrueTexan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:57 am With today's technology I would even question why a person has to stand behind a camera in a situation like this. I have a device that almost 20 years ago was able to remotely control much of my Cannon EOS SLR camera. The technology today can control the cameras remotely thus allowing the operator to control the camera safely.
I was going to post this same though earlier, technology has changed the need to do what the cinematographer did. I’ve beat this subject too much already, but the idea that it was not necessary for her to stand in front of the gun loaded or not would assign her some responsibility in her own death in a proportional guilt scenario. Just food for though, I know that is not how our system works, but it is a legal system used by others.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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If it’s not the cameraman or other production crew standing in the line of fire, then often it might be another actor for that scene which needs to stand close to the line of fire for the correct camera angle or whatever. The point is that if real guns have to be used as props then some sort of fool-proof protocol must be established. Probably, more realistic possibility is to somehow disable prop guns to prevent the possibility of live ammo from being loaded into the cylinder in the first place (and only allow blanks). There must be some technical reason why this isn’t being done but I can’t think of any now that can’t be overcome with some tinkering.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Bisbee wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:28 pm If it’s not the cameraman or other production crew standing in the line of fire, then often it might be another actor for that scene which needs to stand close to the line of fire for the correct camera angle or whatever. The point is that if real guns have to be used as props then some sort of fool-proof protocol must be established. Probably, more realistic possibility is to somehow disable prop guns to prevent the possibility of live ammo from being loaded into the cylinder in the first place (and only allow blanks). There must be some technical reason why this isn’t being done but I can’t think of any now that can’t be overcome with some tinkering.
The way computer editing works I bet no one ever has to stand opposite of a real gun. I believe much of the blank discussion outlined possible options as well.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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If you don't have the experience of having actually worked on a movie set, you should keep your speculations to a minimum and consider your limitations on discussing what should, or should not, occur on set. You are in over your heads.

The 4 Rules don't work on a movie set. Other precautions are used. Like no live ammo on set, which, obviously, on this set was broken. There are others, like having someone in charge of the firearms used on set. They had that but Production didn't think it necessary to have it be that person's only job. There are many others which have mostly been discussed here and in the articles.

Sure, there was a complete failure in this instance, but I will take the history of firearms safety around the set over the history of firearms safety at professional run ranges.

BTW, sometimes there is live ammo on set. When shooting in public places and usually if there is driving on public roads local police are hired (often required) and they certainly have ammo. Some actors have body guards, they may be armed.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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You don't need to work on a set or the industry to understand weapons are not toys. I'm amazed the defense actors get for negligent behavior with guns. Four rules always work regardless of where it is. That's really the point of the four rules and guns. Thanks for telling people to shut up that don't agree with your perspective. I fail to see the rational that anyone is excused from checking a weapon. Obviously, the standards are inadequate, the obvious proof is a dead person. It's much more convenient to try to pin all the blame on one perhaps inexperienced armorer. Thanks again for the reminder that only the right people should have opinions and observations.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Stiff wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:55 pm It’s hard for me to believe that Baldwin didn’t pull the trigger, but with another witness confirming it, I suppose it’s possible. After all, they’re dealing with an old revolver here, not a modern handgun with multiple safeties that make it impossible to fire without pulling the trigger.
I was thinking about this last night... I have no idea if this is accurate, but it occurred to me that if you have a bunch of yahoo crew members shooting "wild west" revolvers during downtime, it's a pretty good chance that someone decided to fan that hammer. Could have busted the works up pretty good, or good enough to cause the hammer to fail to sit on the sear upon cocking. I don't fan my revolvers for this very reason (and 'cause, you know, that shit's just for the movies.) How the live round got in there is anyone's guess.
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Minute Of Average

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Ylatkit wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:15 pm He picked up a weapon and broke safety rules and someone died as a result.

Hang him.
You bought new tires at the tire shop and they mounted them. You drive out of the shop and one of the wheels pops off, you loose control and jump the curb and hit Grandma, killing her. You didn't check the lug nuts? Off with your head MURDERER!

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:39 am I don’t really care for airsoft, but then again this was not about using an airsoft gun. It was a real gun used as “prop” in a movie. Also, I’ve said it before, anyone who touches a gun is responsible for safety checking it and following the four rules. I don’t care if it takes more time and upsets the director or costs more money and delays. We’re talking about safety and human life. There’s no exceptions with gun use. As for airsoft, it numbs your sensitivity and gets you accustomed to pointing weapons at people. It’s not necessarily in training to shoot. I don’t get a thrill out of pointing a weapon and pulling a trigger at anyone even one that is supposedly a “toy”.
We are talking about human life, that’s why there’s an armorer paid to take custody of prop guns and ensure they’re not hot.

You can insist that everybody who touches a real gun must know safety, but on a movie set it doesn’t work that way. This point has been belabored many times, so I will accept that you can’t or won’t understand it.

Kids and people have been playing Cowboys and Indians with toy guns since the age of Cowboys and Indians. In modern times there are airsoft, paintball, laser tag, etc. It is inconceivable to ban any activity involving pointing an instrument at another person solely because it ‘desensitizes’ people. Are we gonna ban human sized and shaped targets too?
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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I saw that the interview got rather low ratings. Seems not that many people care, either about Baldwin, or about gun safety.

As with cars, gun accidents happen all the time and we just don't bother to notice. Automobiles could someday be made so safe that injuries and deaths would be quite rare, but guns must be lethal to be useful. What isn't useful is the blame game. I'm pretty sure that people have died making movies in car crashes. Cars can be glamorous but they are not mysterious. Guns have a mystique about them pumped up by just about everyone who stands to profit from it. The gun is perhaps the most matter of fact contraption ever devised by mortals. Hollywood's culpability is in the glamour and mystique they bestow on them.

Everyone on this forum knows what went wrong. Let he who is without sin fire the first blank.
Too many words? Did the dictionary run out of room?

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Gee. I guess I didn't pick up much when I read "How to Win Friends and Influence People".

Yeah, people who have experience and knowledge of a subject? Their opinion is worth more. Your doctor says get vaccinated, your plumber says take ivermectin, worked for her! What to do? What to do?
...technology has changed the need to do what the cinematographer did. I’ve beat this subject too much already, but the idea that it was not necessary for her to stand in front of the gun loaded or not would assign her some responsibility in her own death in a proportional guilt scenario...
That's where you are in over your head.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Ylatkit wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:22 am
lurker wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:00 pm is mr baldwin a shooter, i.e. does he shoot outside a movie prop context?
No idea. Doesn't really matter.

The responsibility was his, and he failed to meet it. Whether he failed to meet it because of a lack of knowledge, a false belief, a belief in the law, belief in an armorer, belief in company rules, money, time or belief in a tooth fairy doesn't matter.

None of it matters, because none of it relieves his responsibility.
This is true. Alec Baldwin had used firearms before, 2 long-slide 1911's for his role in 'The Shadow.' So he had previously used firearms, at least semi-auto handguns, and this time filming 'Rust' (Single Action Army). He failed to follow the Cardinal Rules of Gun Safety, and should have grilled that armorer before handling that revolver, if he didn't know its functions. He should've known better.

To hell with his, "I never pulled the trigger..." nonsense. He stated he cocked the hammer, his finger had to be *somewhere* right?

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Ylatkit wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:06 pm
Stiff wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:33 pm
sikacz wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:39 amYou can insist that everybody who touches a real gun must know safety, but on a movie set it doesn’t work that way.
Break the safety rules, people die.
Do you clean your firearms? If you keep absolute adherence to the 4 safety rules, how do you do that and not break those rules? "After you have visually confirmed that the firearm is empty..." Doesn't appear in the 4 rules.

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