AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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Insisting it will make students safer, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted Thursday to let anyone with a permit to carry a concealed weapon bring it on to university and college campuses, including classrooms and dorms.

The move came as Republican lawmakers on the panel rejected arguments by Michael Thompson, the chief of police of Arizona State University, who told them that SB 1123 is a bad idea.

“I’m here to tell you from first-hand experience that university students make very poor decisions on a daily basis, sometimes hourly basis,'' he said. “Adding guns to an already high-risk environment of alcohol, drugs, overreaction, lack of life experience and immaturity is a very dangerous combination.”

And Thompson, who has been ASU police chief since 2014, said doesn't even take into account mental health issues and students who are considering suicide.

But Sen. Wendy Rogers, R-Flagstaff, the sponsor of the measure, said her objections and those of lobbyists for the universities and community colleges ignores what she said is current reality of those ignoring existing law.

“How do you know how many weapons are on campus?” she asked.

Thompson conceded she has “a very good point.”

Rogers pressed on.

The senator suggested a situation where “a potential perpetrator” comes onto a college campus.

“But then I understand that it's legal for fellow students to be carrying,” she said.

“I would be less apt to inflict harm if I knew that other students might be carrying to protect themselves,” Rogers said. “Is that not true?”

“That would be an assumption that I couldn't make,” Thompson responded.

Other Republicans picked up on the theme.

Sen. Warren Petersen, R-Gilbert, cited a 2015 incident at Northern Arizona University when Steven E. Jones, an 18-year-old freshman, shot four people and severely injured three others in a parking lot on the campus. Originally charged with murder, he later pleaded guilty to one count of manslaughter and three counts of aggravated assault and was sentenced to six years in prison.

Petersen said that proved there are guns on campuses despite the ban.

“They are being carried by those who do not care about the law,” he said. Firearms are being carried by those who are going to rape people, commit crimes, hurt people.

More to the point, Petersen argued that the results might have been different had SB 1123 been on the books.

“Had those other students been able to defend themselves they probably wouldn’t have been shot,” he said.

But Sen. Martin Quezada, D-Glendale, said that is based on the mistaken assumption that more guns on campuses actually creates a safer environment.

Quezada said he looked up data from Colorado, which has allowed campus carry since laws against it were struck down in 2012 by that state's supreme court.

“The rates of rape actually increased ... and not by small amounts,” he said, up 25% that year and 33% the year after that. “The research from other states with similar laws backs that up, too.”

Yet Quezada said none of that has halted what have become perennial efforts in Arizona to expand who can carry weapons, and where.

“We keep promoting this false narrative that guns are the answer to all of our problems,” he said. “We need to stop portraying this narrative that anybody can be a hero because if they’re armed with a gun in a dangerous situation.”

And Quezada told colleagues this isn’t just about claims about college students and their ability to react in an emergency.

“I don’t trust most of you people if there was a dangerous situation to pull out a gun and be able to save anybody, much less not spill your drink on the dais up here,” he said.

Proponents said this isn’t about allowing just anyone to be armed.

Sen. Sonny Borrelli, R-Lake Havasu City, said the legislation is limited to those with a concealed-carry permit. That is available only to those 21 and older — 19 for veterans.

But Jody Liggett who lobbies for the League of Women Voters, pointed out that the requirements to get a CCW permit have been loosened over the years.

“A person can obtain one without training in firearms, weapons or showing proficiency,” she said. “Therefore, to assume that holding such a permit mitigates the danger of guns on campus is wrong.”

Much of the argument for the measure, however, came down to pure numbers.

Thompson acknowledged that he has just 92 officers to cover four ASU campuses with more than 100,000 students. The staffing is similar at the University of Arizona which currently has 53 sworn officers — it actually is authorized 66 but is still looking to hire — for a campus that has about 50,000 enrolled.

But Thompson said there are other safety measures, ranging from the ability of students to get escorts at night to “blue light” emergency call boxes.

Borrelli was unimpressed.

“The police are minutes away — minutes,” he said.

Sen. Vince Leach, R-Tucson, had similar questions, citing a letter he got from a woman working at a community college — he said he did not know which one -- who told him that classes can end as late as 9 p.m.

“She talks about the parking lots she has to cross,” he said. “She talks about the fact that in those parking lots there have been robberies, there have been muggings, there have been rapes.”

Leach said there just isn't the police presence to provide sufficient protection.

But Kristen Boilini who lobbies for community colleges, urged lawmakers to leave the issue to locally elected governing boards.

“All of our college boards work closely with law enforcement and security personnel to ensure that the policies they set protect students,” she said.

Thompson noted that students are not defenseless, even if they cannot carry firearms.

In 2018, facing a demand by some lawmakers, the Arizona Board of Regents agreed to let those on campus carry non-lethal weapons.

That includes things like over-the-counter pepper sprays as long as they are not the same concentration as used by law enforcement. Students, staff and visitors also can have shock devices that can be purchased by the general public as long as they require direct contact with an assailant and do not shoot out electrically charged wires.

The measure still needs approval of the full Senate before going to the House.
https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/comm ... ses,281684

How Many States Allow Campus Carry?
Short Answer: Approximately eleven states permit concealed carry on campus in some form. These states include Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Mississippi, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Wisconsin. Additionally, colleges in Virginia and Ohio voluntarily allow concealed carry.

Long Answer: Shortly after the Virginia Tech shooting in 2007, Students for Concealed Carry took an active role in urging the repeal of campus self-defense bans, and has successfully lobbied for changed laws in more than a dozen states.

Rules allowing campus carry are governed by state law. Consequently, regulatory mechanisms and operative law differ by region, and are applied differently. Some colleges only allow guns locked in cars. Some permit concealed carry only on the grounds, but not inside buildings. And of course, some colleges allow carry inside of buildings.

16 states prohibit concealed carry on campus by law. This means that persons knowingly carrying a concealed deadly weapon, even with a permit, are subject to fines and imprisonment. These states are: California, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina and Wyoming.

23 states permit colleges to make their own rules against campus carry, but refrain from criminal penalties. Consequently, penalties are limited to academic sanctions such as suspension or expulsion (for students) or termination (for employees and faculty). These states are: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, Virginia, Washington and West Virginia. As mentioned, some colleges have voluntarily opted to allow concealed carry, including Cederville University in Ohio and Liberty University in Virginia.

11 states expressly permit concealed carry on campus, including Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Mississippi, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Wisconsin.

Some colleges have taken action to reduce concealed carry on campus even in states which allow it. For example, despite a court ruling in Oregon revoking statutory bans on campus carry, the education board voted to exclude campus carry from buildings by policy. (According to media reports, students routinely carry anyway.) Most if not all of Wisconsin colleges exercise their legal authority to ban concealed carry inside of buildings.

Tennessee campus carry is confined to faculty and staff only. Conversely, some states including Michigan, Ohio and Virginia allow open carry on college campus property outside of buildings. (SCC does not take an active position on open carry on campus.) Furthermore, there is legal analysis which suggests concealed carry may not be prohibited on campus grounds in Virginia.

Also note that some states require “enhanced permits” which entail additional training before carrying on campus, such as Idaho, Arkansas and Mississippi.

Some states allow guns to be locked in cars on campus, including states in Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, South Carolina, and Tennessee. Students for Concealed Carry has successfully helped bring legal challenges to allow guns to be secured in locked cars in both Ohio and Kentucky.

In conclusion, you can see that answering questions about college firearm policy is not as straightforward as it may seem at first. There is nuance even in how the question is phrased (“how many states allow guns on campus” versus “how many states allow concealed carry on campus”). The takeaway should still be that hundreds of colleges in nearly one-fourth of states in the US now allow campus carry in some form, with virtually no resulting increases in crime, shootings or violence.
https://concealedcampus.org/2020/07/how ... pus-carry/


This reminds me of the original debate over concealed carry in Florida, that the streets would be running with blood. It never happened and as was stated above it's highly likely that students already carry on campuses, they don't have metal detectors and police everywhere. Students coming home to dorms at night, working late at labs, taking night classes - parking lots and parking structures aren't always well lighted or patrolled.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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I have mixed feeling on the idea of conceal carry on college campus. Here in Texas having a CHL allows carry on campus and I’m with the new laws on carry if you can”t carry on school or educational property without a CHL. Also you have to be over 21 to carry in the state. I remember my days in college were there was parties that got pretty wild and woolly with a few fights. That had there been guns it might have become deadly. There is a certain immaturity with many college students away from home for the first time that would not be good to have a firearm present.

https://www.uslawshield.com/need-to-kn ... nal-carry/
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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It's ultimately up to AZ, but I personally don't have a problem with it. There is experience in the 11 states where it's legal (Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Mississippi, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Wisconsin), I haven't seen reports of shootings on campus by students drunk or sober.

I like the idea of requiring a CWP and maybe even an enhanced permit that some states offer. I think the politicians who are against it are the same ones who keep the drinking age at 21, but they let 18 year olds enlist in the military.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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highdesert wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:48 pm It's ultimately up to AZ, but I personally don't have a problem with it. There is experience in the 11 states where it's legal (Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Mississippi, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Wisconsin), I haven't seen reports of shootings on campus by students drunk or sober.

I like the idea of requiring a CWP and maybe even an enhanced permit that some states offer. I think the politicians who are against it are the same ones who keep the drinking age at 21, but they let 18 year olds enlist in the military.
I share your thoughts on this.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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I'm a retired California Community College teacher. During my 28 years, we could carry on campus if we had written permission from the school president if we also had a valid CCW. Now, up here in Butte County it's totally easy to get a CCW. All the ranges have classes and host quals. In big cities, I'm thinking not so much. Probably very tough legally to carry there. Up here bears are more of a problem than humans, and even then, no one has had to shoot a bear on campus.

CDFingers
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If I had a gun for every ace I've drawn
I could arm a town the size of Zhytomyr

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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Minnesota state university system prohibits students and staff from carry(few exceptions) but visitors with a carry permit can carry. Also apparently unlicensed criminals can carry as how would they know, especially in snow season. There is no way the small cop force could ever control this. Just a way to make the list of charges longer when something happens. I don't understand the reasoning, but just to be on the safe side, I lock up my gun in the truck when attending plays. More to do with the narrow seats than the law.

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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CDFingers wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:16 am I'm a retired California Community College teacher. During my 28 years, we could carry on campus if we had written permission from the school president if we also had a valid CCW. Now, up here in Butte County it's totally easy to get a CCW. All the ranges have classes and host quals. In big cities, I'm thinking not so much. Probably very tough legally to carry there. Up here bears are more of a problem than humans, and even then, no one has had to shoot a bear on campus.

CDFingers
Shooting bear with a typical concealed carry side arm most likely will just piss it off more LOL!

I don't know, crazy partying college kids all packin', what could possibly go wrong LOL?

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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DJD100 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:49 pm
I don't know, crazy partying college kids all packin', what could possibly go wrong LOL?

The Crazy frat kids just kill each other with booze OD.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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“We’ve increased our capacity to process CCW permits," the [LA County] sheriff said. "We made the ‘good cause’ standard achievable, and we’re recognizing that the threat to the residents is increasing, so we’re responding accordingly.”

Villaneuva, who oversees the most populous county in the United States, said he has issued only 904 permits since assuming office in 2018. A total of 360 are still being processed, and he expects the total issued to reach 1,000 in the coming days.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... ime-surge

Each applicant must demonstrate proof of residence and good character. In addition, good cause for the purposes of Penal Code section 26150 shall exist only if the following prevails:

Sufficient evidence of potential danger to life or of great bodily harm to the applicant, his or her spouse or dependent child, which cannot be adequately dealt with by existing law enforcement resources and which danger cannot be reasonably avoided by alternative measures, and which danger would be significantly mitigated by the applicant's carrying of a concealed firearm. With respect to certain law enforcement personnel who are not “peace officers” as defined by the California Penal Code, the Sheriff may, but is not compelled to, find that such persons demonstrate the existence of prima facie good cause.
https://lasd.org/wp-content/uploads/202 ... 072320.pdfhttps://lasd.org/ccw/#ccw_req_docs

Villanueva really hasn't changed things, it's still a "may issue" system tightly controlled. More bullshit and he's full of it. A breakdown a few years back showed most LT carriers in LA County were judges and reserve deputies and reserve police.



My county is very different, these are the qualifications set by the last sheriff and remain the same under the current sheriff. Probably very similar to CDF's county.
Be of good moral character (state requirement)
Full-time resident of San Bernardino County
Must have valid identification
Be at least 21 years old
Own and have a gun registered in California
Not have any open criminal cases or pending citations
Not have any felony convictions or specified misdemeanors per Penal Code Sections 29900-29905
Not be on active probation
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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DJD100 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:49 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:16 am I'm a retired California Community College teacher. During my 28 years, we could carry on campus if we had written permission from the school president if we also had a valid CCW. Now, up here in Butte County it's totally easy to get a CCW. All the ranges have classes and host quals. In big cities, I'm thinking not so much. Probably very tough legally to carry there. Up here bears are more of a problem than humans, and even then, no one has had to shoot a bear on campus.

CDFingers
Shooting bear with a typical concealed carry side arm most likely will just piss it off more LOL!

I don't know, crazy partying college kids all packin', what could possibly go wrong LOL?
Isn't this the inflection point where any other gun forum devolves into "are you really carrying enough gun?"

AKA, is that a sawed-off shotgun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

Yes, I know, California is particularly stringent about short-barreled weapons that fire shot.

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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California is such a long state that we can get tremendously different yet locally-dominant opinions about guns and legality north to south. Moreover, our geography effectively cuts the state lengthwise as well, sort of urban to rural, and some times these three communities share ideas--usually not. So gun owners have it rough. "How rough? I have to wear a Molon Labe pendant just to the other guys will play with me."

Case in point: Here's where San Jose will vote whether to charge gun owners $25 a year liability insurance. This from a state that protects a woman's right to choose but will invade a gun owner's right to privacy because "If I don't like it, you can't do it." We hates it.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2022/ ... nnual-fee/

CDFingers
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If I had a gun for every ace I've drawn
I could arm a town the size of Zhytomyr

Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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You can’t carry on campus in Ohio. Has to be in a locked car & you have to have a valid CHL.

I’m not sure why a college or public school campus is somehow a magical place where there are no threats; when in fact - we know there are. I carry everywhere else where lawful to do so, and the places that are “unlawful” Have slowly been whittled away in Ohio, incrementally, with no adverse effects.


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Re: AZ again debates allowing concealed carry on public university and college campuses.

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Now I need to go break out my Ohio CHL handbook. Last I recall, carry was allowed on college campuses with written approval. I think the same was true for K12 schools if traversing the property for lawful purposes like hunting, or in a car during pickup. Neither scenario is relevant enough to my situation to have the details memorized. Carriers are allowed to store a gun in a locked car as you describe.

I went to a school where teachers used replica firearms as hall passes, and the librarian brought a crossbow to history class one time, but those days are long gone. Of course, I also heard stories about classmates keeping firearms in lockers, but can't vouch for them. Blades were a different story, but the only stabbing in my day used a scalpel swiped from a biology class dissection kit.

Librarian did have memorable anecdotes about comparative penetration power between crossbows and 5.56mm.

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