Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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wings wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:32 am NATO didn't want Russia at the time. We screwed the pooch there too. If we'd made real moves towards reconciliation and reconstruction after the end of Communism, instead of self-congratulatory wanking about Reagan's illusory "victory by spending," Yeltsin might have come on board.
Agree and the expansion of NATO since 1997 was and is a west mistake and a direct provocation. Just look at the map posted earlier. I’m surprised Russia let it go this far. Ukraine is the final straw and allowing a country as big as Ukraine to fall into NATO’s sphere is too much. Did anyone in the west think after the fall of the Soviet Union what was in the security interest of all parties. No they did not. A neutral zone that belonged to neither would have been the solution with treaties between Russia and the western NATO allies to leave the area alone. Instead NATO and mainly the USA chose to emphasize that we were the only superpower and decided it would be a good idea to move all the Soviet satellite states into our orbit. The Russians have seen where this has been going for a long time, that was their reason to secure Crimea. Ukraine was becoming a western satellite. This war is on us and our stupidity. No pity for fools.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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wings wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:32 am NATO didn't want Russia at the time. We screwed the pooch there too. If we'd made real moves towards reconciliation and reconstruction after the end of Communism, instead of self-congratulatory wanking about Reagan's illusory "victory by spending," Yeltsin might have come on board.
That could easily have been negotiated. Putin pushed the "missiles pointed at Russia" and THAT could have been easily resolved.
"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class."--George Carlin

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Russia's masters have always been paranoid, Putin is able to dominate the former Soviet republics to the east like Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan...but not the former Warsaw Pact countries in Eastern Europe. There were nuclear weapons throughout the Soviet Union not just in Russia and we worked for years with Russia to deactivate those weapons. They were time bombs that no one wanted exploding.

NATO was created to defend Western Europe against Soviet aggression after the Iron Curtain fell on Eastern Europe and was the counterweight to the Warsaw Pact. Once the Wall fell, the puppet governments the Soviets controlled also fell and those people never wanted to be under the Russian yolk again, I understand it. They too wanted to be protected under NATO. Putin has shown that NATO is still necessary because Russia's current goal is still expansion. Russia is the largest country on earth and it's not big enough for their masters, he's been trying to expand into the Artic Circle on Canadian claimed territory.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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It’s not Ukraine’s fault that the country managed to push out a Putin puppet, then wanting NATO protection. Putin has proven to be a threat to their independence. Ukraine had nuclear arsenal, but was convinced by us, UK and Russia to give it up in exchange for a security assurance. Russia has broken her promise, but we are trying to keep it.

Ukraine is not a threat to Russia as a country, but it is a threat to Putin’s dictatorship. A functioning democracy on Russia’s doorstep might give Russians the idea that they can do well without Putin, that democracy is a viable alternative to Putin’s strong man model.

It’s not about Russia, it’s all about Putin. This is different from the Chinese who actually care more about their national interest than Xi Jinping’s personal power.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Russia was invaded in the past because they were belligerents in conflicts and have always tried to dominate Europe. Putin's Donetsk People's Republic reminds me of Hitler's pretext of protecting the Sudeten Germans and by the Munich Pact, the Western powers allowed him to do it and he eventually he took over the whole country. For a brief window after WWI with the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian and German empires, eastern Europe had some independence, until the Soviets built their Iron Curtain. Democracy is foreign to Russia, the Great Russians have always dominated and subordinated races and ethnic groups.
Communism as an ideology might predict the eventual victory of the working classes and the withering away of the state, but in every case where communists have come to power, they have eventually settled down and ruled as nationalists.
[from sika's article] Nationalism will always trump ideology, extreme nationalism is fascism. Russian communists set up republics within their Soviet Union, but they were puppets, republics in name only. More recently Russia used scorched earth to subdue the Chechnyans, part of Russia.

Putin is the current master of All Russia and he is responsible for the current conflict. And when he gets Ukraine he'll want more, just like Hitler.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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highdesert wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:56 am Russia's masters have always been paranoid, Putin is able to dominate the former Soviet republics to the east like Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan...but not the former Warsaw Pact countries in Eastern Europe. There were nuclear weapons throughout the Soviet Union not just in Russia and we worked for years with Russia to deactivate those weapons. They were time bombs that no one wanted exploding.

NATO was created to defend Western Europe against Soviet aggression after the Iron Curtain fell on Eastern Europe and was the counterweight to the Warsaw Pact. Once the Wall fell, the puppet governments the Soviets controlled also fell and those people never wanted to be under the Russian yolk again, I understand it. They too wanted to be protected under NATO. Putin has shown that NATO is still necessary because Russia's current goal is still expansion. Russia is the largest country on earth and it's not big enough for their masters, he's been trying to expand into the Artic Circle on Canadian claimed territory.
I realize this, but NATO's original mission HAS changed and could have kept changing. The mission to end the war in the former Yugoslavia, and the 1st Iraq war were both NATO exercises, showing that NATO's role and mission were changing to meet current circumstances and threats.

As far back as 1976, when I was a student at the College of Europe in Bruges, Belgium (an undergrad program--don't know if they still have it), one of the professors there remarked that the East/West conflict wasn't the real conflict, but rather it was a North/South conflict. i.e. the REAL struggle was between the developed nations and the emerging ones. The prescience of that observation has been proven in the 46 years since then. The ONLY reason that there's ANY East/West conflict is and always was Putin, a KGB dinosaur. Under Yeltsin it was clear that Russia could, again, be an ally of the West.

Putin destroyed that with his antediluvian view of the Russian/Soviet Empire, the last remnant of the concept of "Holy Roman Empire" (Really! "Czar"==>C-zar==>Caesar. The RC version of the HRE was ruled by the Kaiser--which is how Caesar is properly pronounced).
"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class."--George Carlin

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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sikacz wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:28 am A good read.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/01/21 ... d-history/
I don’t prescribe to an idea that Russia is paranoid. Russia has historical experience and that is not paranoia.
Yes. Read this article. Understand that calling the Russians “paranoid” over the Eastern Bloc going NATO is the same as calling JFK “paranoid” for starting the Cuban Missile Crisis. Cuba, after all was a sovereign nation well within its rights to ally itself with anyone it wished, especially after Castro approached and was rebuffed by the United States for aid. Why then did the US get its panties tied in a knot over Kruschev’s nukes parked 90 miles south of some drunks in the Green Parrot?

On the other hand, I can see how the current conflict isn’t so much a historical fear of the West driving the annexation of Crimea (and now potentially Ukraine) but Putin’s own ambitions for going backwards to feudalism imagining himself as king.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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One more thing, a national crisis is a dictator’s best friend. Such crisis would justify his exercise of near-absolute “emergency powers”, and he can easily paint any dissent as unpatriotic under the circumstances. He needs a crisis serious enough to muzzle people, but not serious enough to actually inconvenience the average Russian. Invading Ukraine at the moment is like a walk in the park for Russia, as the Ukrainian by themselves are no match for the Russian military.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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And yet if the West (NATO leaders) plays its cards right on social media, this act of aggression on Ukrainians can be seen as Putin’s own dirty war to the average Russian and bring about his downfall through protests in his own country.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Bisbee wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:58 pm And yet if the West (NATO leaders) plays its cards right on social media, this act of aggression on Ukrainians can be seen as Putin’s own dirty war to the average Russian and bring about his downfall through protests in his own country.
Except that many, maybe the majority, of Russians would support Putin against the West NATO alliance. There may still be the resentfulness against NATO for the fall of the USSR as time has shed the dislikes and problems of the old regime and leaves only the memories how the West feared Mother Russia. That is why Putin is in power as the link to the glory days that weren't really glory.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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As tensions rise in the standoff over Ukraine, the Department of Homeland Security has warned that the U.S. response to a possible Russian invasion could result in a cyberattack launched against the U.S. by the Russian government or its proxies.

"We assess that Russia would consider initiating a cyber attack against the Homeland if it perceived a US or NATO response to a possible Russian invasion of Ukraine threatened its long-term national security," a DHS Intelligence and Analysis bulletin sent to law enforcement agencies around the country and obtained by ABC News said.

The bulletin was dated Jan. 23, 2022.

Russia, DHS said, has a "range of offensive cyber tools that it could employ against US networks," and the attacks could range from a low level denial of service attack, to "destructive" attacks targeting critical infrastructure.

"We assess that Russia's threshold for conducting disruptive or destructive cyber attacks in the Homeland probably remains very high and we have not observed Moscow directly employ these types of cyber attacks against US critical infrastructure—notwithstanding cyber espionage and potential prepositioning operations in the past," the bulletin said.

Last year, cybercriminals based in Russia caused two of the most destructive cyberattacks in recent memory, the U.S. has said. Colonial Pipeline was the victim of a ransomware attack in May 2021, shutting down operations and causing widespread outages across the country, and meat supplier JBS had its operations shutdown due to Russian based hackers.

Russia is also responsible for the SolarWinds breach in late 202o, the U.S. has said, where the U.S. says Russian-backed cybercriminals gained access to 10 U.S. government agencies including the Department of Homeland Security and Department of Commerce.

DHS says Russia "continues to target" and gain access to critical infrastructure in the United States, but Russia does not limit itself to conducting cyber operations just in the U.S.

The bulletin says in 2015 and 2016, Russian military intelligence assets launched a cyberattack against Ukraine's power grid. Although the bulletin doesn't mention it, Ukrainian officials most recently pointed the finger at Russia for another cyber outage, shutting down government websites.

Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas told reporters last week that the United States is on a "heightened alert" for cyberattacks given "geopolitical landscape."

He told reporters at the U.S. Conference of Mayors on Thursday that it is "difficult to calibrate the likelihood" of something happening.

"The whole point is, when the specter of harm arises, we call for vigilance and quite frankly, in the cybersecurity arena. ever present vigilance is what we call for," he said.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dhs-war ... d=82441727


Where NATO forces are currently deployed.
NATO said on Monday it was putting forces on standby and reinforcing eastern Europe with more ships and fighter jets. Here is an overview of where NATO forces https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/na ... 2022-01-24 are deployed.

BALTICS, POLAND

In Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland, NATO has about 4,000 troops in multinational battalions, backed by tanks, air defences and intelligence and surveillance units.

Described by NATO as combat-ready, the light force presence is designed as a trip wire that would trigger reinforcements in the event a Russian incursion.

NATO also has an air policing mission in these countries, patrolling the skies of the four countries in a mission overseen from the Ramstein airbase in Germany.

NATO also has four multinational standing naval forces that patrol allies and international waters, including the Baltic Sea.

ROMANIA, BULGARIA

NATO has a multinational land force of up to 4,000 troops in Romania. France has offered to send more troops. The United States also has soldiers stationed at separate bases in Romania and in Bulgaria.

Allies also regularly send detachments of fighters to support national air policing in Bulgaria and Romania.

FRANCE

France is leading a spearhead force of air, land and sea components along with Germany in 2022, known as the Very High Readiness Joint Task Force. With at least 5,000 soldiers, the force can be operational within 72 hours. Spain, Portugal, and Poland will also provide troops this year.

The spearhead force is the highest-readiness element of NATO's 40,000-strong response force.

U.S. TROOPS IN EUROPE

Around 74,000 U.S. military personnel are stationed in Europe today, according to the U.S. Congressional Research Service, but not all are active-duty troops.

Germany hosts some 36,000 U.S. troops, Italy around 12,000, Britain some 9,000, Spain some 3,000 and Turkey 1,600. The United States also rotates about 4,500 troops through Poland but they are not stationed permanently. Many of these forces can be deployed on behalf of NATO.

BALKANS

Some 3,500 allied and partner troops operate in Kosovo as part of NATO's KFOR peacekeeping force.

Allies also provide air policing support to smaller Balkan allies. Slovenia's airspace is protected by Hungary and Italy, while Albania and Montenegro are covered by Greece and Italy. North Macedonian skies are policed by Italy.

MEDITERRANEAN

NATO has a naval mission, Sea Guardian, patrolling the Mediterranean Sea and providing maritime situational awareness to allies, as well as supporting counter-terrorism operations at sea. It could also uphold freedom of navigation if requested by allies.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... e-deployed


Good discussion guys.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Defense Secretary Lloyd J. Austin III has put 8,500 American troops on “high alert” for possible deployment to Eastern Europe, as NATO and the United States braced for a possible Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Pentagon announced on Monday.

Most of the 8,500 troops would take part in a NATO response force that might soon be activated, said John F. Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman. The remaining personnel would be part of a specific U.S. response to the deepening crisis, Defense Department officials said, most likely to provide assurance to American allies in Eastern Europe who are fearful that Russia’s plans for Ukraine could extend to the Baltics and other countries in NATO’s so-called eastern flank.

“It’s very clear the Russians have no intention right now of de-escalating,” Mr. Kirby said at a news conference on Monday. “What this is about, though, is reassurance to our NATO allies.”

Mr. Kirby’s announcement comes after The New York Times reported on Sunday that President Biden was considering the deployment of several thousand U.S. troops, as well as warships and aircraft, to NATO allies in the Baltics and Eastern Europe.

The moves signal a major pivot for the Biden administration, which until recently was taking a restrained stance on Ukraine, out of fear of provoking Russia. But as President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has ramped up his threatening actions toward Ukraine, and talks between American and Russian officials have failed to discourage him, the Biden administration is moving away from its previous strategy.

At the same time, the administration continues to insist that the United States has no intention of going to war with Russia over the issue. Since Ukraine is not in NATO, the alliance is not bound by its treaty to come to Ukraine’s defense. Russia’s massing of more than 100,000 troops on Ukraine’s border, and NATO’s response, has nonetheless raised the specter of a war that could escalate and widen.

“I don’t think anybody wants to see another war on the European continent,” Mr. Kirby said.

In a meeting on Saturday at Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland, senior Pentagon officials presented Mr. Biden with several options that would lead to a shift in U.S. military assets much closer to Russia’s doorstep, administration officials said.

The bulk of the troops being put on higher alert are active-duty ground troops, including combat brigades, medical, aviation, transportation, intelligence and surveillance forces with their equipment, Mr. Kirby told reporters. He declined to identify the specific units, saying that families were being notified on Monday.

“High alert” means the troops are now on what Defense Department officials characterized as a tighter leash, in case deployment orders come quickly. In some cases, officials said, units that have been prepared to deploy within 10 days must now be prepared to deploy within five days.

While the United States could send some of these troops directly to Eastern European members of NATO, such as Poland or Romania, that request certain kinds of supporting forces, Mr. Kirby said most of the troops put on higher alert, if activated, would go toward a special NATO unit.

That unit, the NATO Response Force, or N.R.F., is a 40,000-member multinational force made up of land, air, maritime and Special Operations Forces troops that is intended to respond quickly to emergencies.

“This is significant because it signals that the U.S. is not just doing this unilaterally but is preparing to provide its forces to the N.R.F., all within a NATO context,” said Frederick B. Hodges, the former top U.S. Army commander in Europe now with the Center for European Policy Analysis.

In 2014, after Russia seized Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine, the alliance designated about half of this unit, or about 20,000 troops, to be on “very high readiness” for the most urgent missions.

The NATO Response Force reports to Gen. Tod D. Wolters, a four-star U.S. Air Force officer who is the alliance’s top military commander.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/p ... roops.html
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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NATO member Turkey is really quiet through all of this. Anyone remember Turkey? If this isn't maskirovka, they are going to play a decisive role in which way this goes. If they wanted to go all in for Ukraine, they pull NATO in, and Putin won't survive. OTOH, if Erdogan decides that Putin really is his best bud and he doesn't want any NATO nonsense to disrupt that - it goes the other way.

Poland is the other one to keep an eye on. They held massive swaths of what is now Ukraine post WWI but pre WWII. Long history of antagonism there. Also, they held out longer against Nazi Germany than France did.

Re the Baltics, they wanted into NATO really hard, almost as hard as they wanted out of the USSR. They got screwed over by everyone in WWII, and weren't particularly happy as SSRs under Soviet rule. Plot point in Hunt for Red October, Ramius was Lithuanian. Strong connections to Poland here too. They're still on Putin's list of renegade SSRs that rightfully belong under the loving iron thumb of Mother Russia.

Saw recently where Finland and Sweden are both reconsidering the strategic value of neutrality in favor of NATO membership. You'll see the same pattern with Russia and its historic suzerainties replicated in the Former Yugoslavian Republics, where Serbia = Russia and everyone else = everyone else. Putin still feels humiliated about how that all fell out, and how near everyone but Serbia joined NATO. Weird in some ways, given the historic distance between Yugoslavia and the USSR.

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Ireland has told Russia its plans to host live-fire naval exercises off the country's coast are "not welcome".

But the Irish defence minister said the country had no power to stop it.

It comes amid rising tensions over a build-up of Russia's military forces on the Ukraine border and threats of consequences for any invasion from the US and its allies.

Ireland, however, has a long-standing policy of military neutrality and is not part of the Nato military alliance.

Simon Coveney, who holds both the foreign and defence ministerial briefs, told journalists in Brussels that the Irish government had received a notification from Russia about the planned military exercises.

They are due to take place about 240km (150 miles) off the south-west coast of Ireland, he said.

"That is in international waters but it is also part of the exclusive economic zone of Ireland," he explained.

It is also within Ireland's air space, and flights will have to be diverted to avoid the area.

The exclusive economic zone is different from territorial or sovereign waters, and refers to the area where a country has special rights to exploit the ocean's resources. But naval exercises by foreign powers can be carried out there.

"We don't have the power to prevent this happening, but certainly I've made it clear to the Russian ambassador in Ireland that it's not welcome," Mr Coveney said.

Mr Coveney made his remarks as he was preparing to meet with EU counterparts to discuss the crisis in Ukraine, and any non-military response the EU might pursue. He said he planned to raise the naval exercises briefly with the other EU ministers.

Amid the tensions over Ukraine, Russia announced it would stage military exercises with all its fleets across the world, including the Atlantic Ocean.

But the timing and location of have raised eyebrows among some defence pundits.

The area - off the west coast of Europe - is far from any of Russia's permanent naval bases, and is also near several critical transatlantic data cables, which defence experts have warned Russia could pose a risk to.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60113233

The Republic of Ireland has always been neutral, even in WWII.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Russia said on Tuesday it was watching with great concern after the United States put 8,500 troops on alert to be ready to deploy to Europe in case of an escalation in the Ukraine crisis.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov accused Washington of fuelling tensions over Ukraine - repeating Moscow's line that the crisis is being driven by U.S. and NATO actions rather than by its own build-up of tens of thousands of troops near the Ukrainian border.

Western states accuse Russia of planning a new attack on Ukraine, which it invaded in 2014. Moscow denies any such plan but says it could take unspecified military action unless demands are met, including a NATO promise never to admit Kyiv.

NATO said on Monday it was putting forces on standby and reinforcing eastern Europe with more ships and fighter jets. Russia denounced the moves as Western "hysteria".

Peskov said President Vladimir Putin would talk this week to his French counterpart Emmanuel Macron, who is also planning to speak with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy.

Russia is awaiting a written U.S. response this week to its list of security demands it has presented, some of which Washington has dismissed as non-starters.

Peskov said the U.S. troop alert did not affect negotiations because the current phase of talks had been completed.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kr ... 022-01-25/


These are the demands that Putin made in December 2021.
Russia has issued a wish list of security demands it wants to negotiate with the West to defuse a crisis over Ukraine, including a legally binding guarantee that the Nato military alliance would give up any activity in its neighbour and other ex-Soviet countries.

The demands form an ambitious and ultimately unrealistic package that Moscow says is an essential requirement for lowering tensions with Ukraine, which Western countries have accused Russia of sizing up for a potential attack - something it has denied.

The list also contained elements - such as an effective Russian veto on Nato membership for Ukraine - that the West has already ruled out.

Presenting the demands in detail for the first time, Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told reporters on Friday that Russia and the West must start from a clean sheet in rebuilding relations.

“The line pursued by the United States and Nato over recent years to aggressively escalate the security situation is absolutely unacceptable and extremely dangerous,” he said.

“Washington and its Nato allies should immediately stop regular hostile actions against our country, including unscheduled exercises ... and manoeuvres of military ships and planes, and stop the military development of Ukrainian territory.”

Ryabkov said Russia was not willing to put up with the current situation any more. He urged the United States to take the proposals seriously and come up with a constructive response fast.

Ryabkov said Russia was ready to start talks as soon as Saturday, with Geneva a possible venue, and that its negotiating team was ready.

Nato’s secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg responded on Friday by emphasizing that any security talks with Moscow would need to take into account the alliance’s concerns and involve Ukraine and other partners

White House press secretary Jen Psaki said the United States had seen the proposals and was speaking to allies.

“There will be no talks on European security without our European allies and partners,” Psaki told reporters.

Russian news agency TASS quoted Ryabkov as saying later that Moscow was extremely disappointed by the signals coming from the United States and Nato.

Russia handed over its proposals to the United States earlier this week amid soaring tensions over a build-up of Russian troops near Ukraine.

Moscow says it is responding to what it sees as threats to its own security from Ukraine’s increasingly close relations with Nato and aspirations to join the alliance, even though there is no imminent prospect of Ukraine being allowed to join.

The Russian proposals were set out in two documents - a draft agreement with Nato countries and a draft treaty with the United States, both published by the foreign ministry.

Sam Greene, professor of Russian politics at King’s College London, said on Twitter that President Vladimir Putin was “drawing a line around the post-Soviet space and planting a ‘keep out’ sign”.

“It’s not meant to be a treaty: it’s a declaration,” he said. “But that doesn’t necessarily mean this is a prelude to war. It’s a justification for keeping Moscow’s hair-trigger stance, in order to keep Washington and others off balance. Question is, how long can that be maintained, before it loses its efficacy?”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 78270.html
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Sam Greene, professor of Russian politics at King’s College London, said on Twitter that President Vladimir Putin was “drawing a line around the post-Soviet space and planting a ‘keep out’ sign”.

“It’s not meant to be a treaty: it’s a declaration,” he said. “But that doesn’t necessarily mean this is a prelude to war. It’s a justification for keeping Moscow’s hair-trigger stance, in order to keep Washington and others off balance. Question is, how long can that be maintained, before it loses its efficacy?”
Right, and how is it Ukraine is a threat militarily to Russia? It is not. And why does Putin think he can tell Ukraine what to do?

Fuck the asshole, lets put NATO troops at the front line.
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
- Emerson

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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tonguengroover wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:09 am Fuck the asshole, lets put NATO troops at the front line.
Fuck that!!!
You really want to go to war with Russia in their own backyard? Dood, you really need to look at a map...that's a war we lose 10 out of 10 times. They have heavy rail taking them a VERY short distance to the fight. We have to travel over 5,000 miles just to show up.
Do you know how fast artillery is consumed on a modern battlefield? How you goin to keep your guns supplied? Every artillery gun in the conflict has a fire rate of over 20 rounds per minute, and there are thousands of guns. The logistics are mind boggling. We don't have 200 liberty ships anymore.

And never forget, Russia is a nuclear power... You don't pick fights with nuclear powers. There are reasons that all during the Cold War we fought proxy wars. Both sides knew it was way to dangerous to directly fight each other. That danger is only greater now.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Hell we are supplying them with weapons. Putting troops there will call his bluff. I'm certain it is a bluff.
Besides, what calling up 8,500 troops going to do if they are just sitting a thousand miles away?
Would Putin really kill NATO troops? I doubt it.
Lessee, where have we had troops along Russia's borders before?
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
- Emerson

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Uh, yeah...
America has had too many adventures kicking sand in developing country faces. None of them worked out too well neither... But hubris is certainly no bueno when dealing with a nuclear power.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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Reminder, the US (NATO) and EU made no such moves to invite Russia. Instead NATO immediately started to take in and welcome former east block countries to join. This escalation is all on NATO and the USA. The only “superpower” indeed. I hope we’re all proud of that boast now.
Image
Image

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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sikacz wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:34 am Reminder, the US (NATO) and EU made no such moves to invite Russia. Instead NATO immediately started to take in and welcome former east block countries to join. This escalation is all on NATO and the USA. The only “superpower” indeed. I hope we’re all proud of that boast now.
Yep. Sort of reminds me of a reversed Cuban missile crisis (not that I was born yet). It seems we'd have done better to try to work inclusive of Russia rather than attempting territorial gains at their boarder. But, Putin is also an asshole, so there's that at play as well.

Re: Biden says Russia will invade Ukraine.

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FrontSight wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:19 am
tonguengroover wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:09 am Fuck the asshole, lets put NATO troops at the front line.
Fuck that!!!
You really want to go to war with Russia in their own backyard? Dood, you really need to look at a map...that's a war we lose 10 out of 10 times. They have heavy rail taking them a VERY short distance to the fight. We have to travel over 5,000 miles just to show up.
Do you know how fast artillery is consumed on a modern battlefield? How you goin to keep your guns supplied? Every artillery gun in the conflict has a fire rate of over 20 rounds per minute, and there are thousands of guns. The logistics are mind boggling. We don't have 200 liberty ships anymore.

And never forget, Russia is a nuclear power... You don't pick fights with nuclear powers. There are reasons that all during the Cold War we fought proxy wars. Both sides knew it was way to dangerous to directly fight each other. That danger is only greater now.
Whether US politicians admit it, we're into the 2nd Cold War. Russia doesn't have its European proxies any longer, those Iron Curtain countries are now part of the EU and NATO. Putin only has Belarus and he's feeling paranoid.

In a John LeCarre film one of the characters remarks that Russians are so paranoid they think the butterflies are spying on them. Decades of living under communism and now under Putinism.
Last edited by highdesert on Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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