Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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Firearms are truly a different kettle of fish: they can deal death at, say, 1000 meters, either intentionally or accidentally. Such a feature in my opinion requires a deeper level of scrutiny and of responsibility of ownership. It would be beneficial if we could insert culturally the idea of responsibility into the idea of a well-regulated militia--which is drawn from The People who have the right to keep and bear arms. I think this can be properly framed.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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Ylatkit wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:16 am
...set of safety rules? (They do. The main one is Go Home At The End Of Your Shift.)
This one jumps out at me every time.

Yes, I recognize that there are people at home who want the cop to come home at the end of the shift. Yes, I recognize that the cop also wants to go home at the end of the shift.

But the militarization attitude that has overtaken police departments over the last forty years, to the point of being part of their training, has led to the cops thinking they are warriors. I don't know the complete quote, but the phrase," the way of the warrior is death," comes to mind. If they are going to be willing to pull the trigger as part of their job, they don't get to bet on going home at the end of the shift.

And, further, cops are supposedly better trained than me. I grant that I don't know for certain I wouldn't draw in that situation, never having been in that situation, but I like to think I would be able to discern the audible difference between an acorn hitting the roof of a car and a gunshot--even a suppressed shot.

There's an aviation axiom that goes sort of like: "A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid those situations which require the use of superior skill." Whatever else we might say, the cop exhibited far less than superior judgement.
Eventually I'll figure out this signature thing and decide what I want to put here.

Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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Bear Paws, in my band, (San Poil band, Colville res) an LEO is one of about four or five occupations that is considered a Warrior. It has to do with putting themselves between the band and the bad guys. (Or between the band and the cavalry. But let's not go down that road.)

It sounds like your tribe is different.

I've never heard that a police officer is supposed to be better trained than anyone, and instructors make jokes about it. When I'm asked who my toughest students are, my answer is always a young man in front of his woman, and cops.

Cops have one of the most complicated, complex jobs I can imagine, with full blown human beings as opponents. The things you and I would want a truly well trained cop to be taught would take a full-on four year degree, at least, and then they'd need to be taught about guns. There isn't time or money to teach them everything they need, or even a decent fraction of what they need. Blame the voters. So given that staggering limit on what we can teach them, what should it be? Guns and shooting are usually a fairly small part of what they do. So gun education falls down the list, way down the list, and doesn't get the money, the time or the attention that other, more important things do.

True story:

"Why are you wearing a vest? You never wear a vest."

"I'm teaching cops."

"oh."

Disclaimer: we don't do the primary teaching to cops. There are state and department schools that do that. When we get them, they're paying out of their pocket because they have a qualification coming up and know they need help.
Last edited by Ylatkit on Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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Ylatkit wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:06 pm Bear Paws, in my band, (San Poil band, Colville res) an LEO is one of about four or five occupations that is considered a Warrior. It has to do with putting themselves between the band and the bad guys.

It sounds like your tribe is different.

I've never heard that a police officer is supposed to be better trained than anyone, and instructors make jokes about it.

True story:

"Why are wearing a vest? You never wear a vest."

"I'm teaching cops."

Disclaimer: we don't do the primary teaching to cops. There are state and department schools that do that. When we get them, they're paying out of their pocket because they have a qualification coming up and know they need help.
Fair enough. I am hearing that you are of indigenous background, and as a person of mostly European ancestry, I at least recognize that we may have different nuances in mind when we use the term "warrior."

I speak from a less-formal perspective. Cops are (or should be) held to a higher standard of behavior in a lot of ways, but the sense that the average Kroger cashier is better at de-escalating a situation than the average cop also has weight in "my band," as the Kroger cashier stands to lose their job if they can't de-escalate, and cops often escalate first (a random sampling of videos from "Audit the audit," "The Civil Rights Lawyer," and similar YouTube channels, along with personal experience and experience of friends and neighbors, supports my claim).

But, as you note, I'm not an instructor, so lack that level of training, experience, and expertise. I'm just a guy who thinks about safety and being humane and who has lost a few too many neighbors to cops shooting into apartments or homes only because other cops were shooting. I think about the "Brett Hankison Memorial Patio Door" I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum. I think about the cops who fired into the sides of the UPS vehicle in Miramar Florida a few years ago. I think about the police training that I, as a non-cop, have read about that allegedly includes shoot/don't shoot drills to teach them to choose well under high stress scenarios that I lack the means to train as deeply for.

And I am dead solid certain that cops in this country are not screened enough or trained enough to do a quarter of what our society has them do.
Eventually I'll figure out this signature thing and decide what I want to put here.

Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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I agree completely that they need more training.

We had a rather famous (meaning it was in the local papers) case here where a Seattle officer named Ian Birk shot an indigenous wood carver named John T. Williams.

During the investigation, it came out that Birk was thinking about the Tueller drill as he approached Williams. It came out that Birk believed that because Williams was within 21 feet, the Tueller drill meant that he had no choice but to open fire.

That is not correct, that's not even close.

Birk did not understand his training, he did not understand the very basics of shoot-no shoot drills, and now Johnson is dead.

I agree that a lack of training means people will die.

But it's about time and money. For every dollar spent on ammo, for every hour spent at the range, there are at least a hundred other things I would rather have a prospective cop taught instead. Things that could help them avoid using a gun altogether. And here in Seattle, we tried to de-fund the police. They're not getting enough money for their training now, and we're trying to take that away from them. There is a very hard limit on how much time and money can be spent teaching a cop to shoot, with predictable results.

I've had cops tell me in class that they have, on the street, covered people they had no intention of shooting. Do that day after day, and the safety rules, whatever they are, will start to erode.

P.S. I've often wondered what would happen if we raised a cop's starting salary to a couple hundred thousand a year, and then required a Master's degree or even a doctorate in something like law, or medicine, or maybe social work. What if every cop IS a trained social worker? What if every cop CAN handle the problems society generates? What if, because of the requirements, being a cop came to be as respected as being a doctor? What if we trained them and then paid them as if this is life and death?

Used to be the cops in England didn't even carry guns. Now that's respect.

Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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Ylatkit wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:34 pm
P.S. I've often wondered what would happen if we raised a cop's starting salary to a couple hundred thousand a year, and then required a Master's degree or even a doctorate in something like law, or medicine, or maybe social work. What if every cop IS a trained social worker? What if every cop CAN handle the problems society generates? What if, because of the requirements, being a cop came to be as respected as being a doctor? What if we trained them and then paid them as if this is life and death?

Used to be the cops in England didn't even carry guns. Now that's respect.
FIL was a cop, BIL was killed in the line of duty, used to hang out with the FIL's cop buddies. Got hired by a local Sherriff who I trained Martial Arts with to help him teach his deputies about dealing with edged weapons What we have right now is a shit situation where police are supposed to handle *everything* from a junkie falling down because of overdose to family disturbances and everything in between. Who the hell wants to be a cop now days?

Many people who apply are the absolute last person you want carrying a gun in a stressful situation. Pay them more, screen them better, train them better and make being a police officer a good job with respect, great pay and opportunity, and stop making them deal with social issues and people with psychological disorders.

We are, in many cases, getting police officers who are even more F'd up than the folks they are supposed to arrest.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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As many instances of police breaking protocol, shooting people when they shouldn’t, and other failures, it doesn’t say much about the people who train them. Perhaps the issue is in the trainer, perhaps they should be better trained and perhaps be required to fail those that are simply not cut out to be police officers. Social services should not be handled by police, it’s simply not logical to ask police to do a job they are not trained for.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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sikacz wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:30 pm As many instances of police breaking protocol, shooting people when they shouldn’t, and other failures, it doesn’t say much about the people who train them. Perhaps the issue is in the trainer, perhaps they should be better trained and perhaps be required to fail those that are simply not cut out to be police officers. Social services should not be handled by police, it’s simply not logical to ask police to do a job they are not trained for.
All of this comes down to one word: money.

Re: Deputy Fires At Unarmed Suspect, Apparently Mistaking Acorn For Gunshot

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LOL Deputy Jesse Hernandez resigned after that incident, but his partner is apparently still on the job.
Sgt. Beth Roberts heard Hernandez with terror in his voice yelling that he had been struck by gunfire and saw him scrambling in the road. “I thought I just saw a deputy get murdered,” she later told investigators. Analysts found it was hard to tell, but they believe Roberts first fired 0.231 seconds after Hernandez’s initial shot. Investigators said her actions violated no policy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... t-unarmed/
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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