Appendix Carry

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Appendix Carry

#1 Post by featureless » Tue May 15, 2018 5:33 pm

So, I'll be on a couple of week road trip this summer in states that will permit this otherwise unauthorized Californian to carry under my Arizona CCW permit. I've never carried before (see location). Having fated around with some various holsters around the house, appendix carry seems to work the best for me. I've got a couple of questions for those that get to do this stuff on a regular basis.

1) What do you do with the gun when driving more than an hour or so? Just suck it up and live with the poke in the gut?

2) My choices are an M&P9 or Shield. The M&P9 seems to conceal just fine under an untucked shirt in a JM Custom Kydex holster (that little wing thingy is genius). Which would you prefer to lug around the sticks all day?

3) Any special provisions/advisories for Nevada, Utah, Colorado or Idaho? It looks like don't carry in government buildings and don't go into bars about covers it.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#2 Post by senorgrand » Tue May 15, 2018 5:40 pm

Let us know how it goes!
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Re: Appendix Carry

#3 Post by featureless » Tue May 15, 2018 5:56 pm

senorgrand wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 5:40 pm
Let us know how it goes!
Oh I will. I'll be bringing a small day pack with a holster in it in case I get all weirded out or get sick of carrying a brick in my drawers. I don't like the idea of leaving it in the car.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#4 Post by Thorian » Tue May 15, 2018 7:26 pm

Appendix carry is definitely the way to go while driving. It's the easiest to draw from, by far, while seated and buckled in.

They do sell holsters specifically for under the dash or inside the center console, but even an aiwb holster would be fine in those spots, so long as you don't leave it in the car when you get out.

The downside is having to stuff the whole thing back into the front of your pants when you stop... Without anyone seeing you.

Enjoy!

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Re: Appendix Carry

#5 Post by VodoundaVinci » Tue May 15, 2018 7:32 pm

I'm an Appendix Aficionado and train from that carry position. It has huge advantages....easy to shield the gun from being detected by a casual brush by or deliberate hug. Very intuitive...the hands tend to go to the mid line when we are threatened. You can draw the gun when lying on yer back with a guy pounding yer face in. You can draw very easily and not detected by turning your body and lifting yer elbow. The list goes on and on and Appendix, if one can pull it off is lighting fast from the draw and very easy.

The problem is that if you have Junk around the middle it's gonna get pokie in the belly. I literally shed 30 pounds to be comfortable carrying Appendix. I can't be delicate - this carry position is *not* for fatso. Not to fat shame - just fact. If yer tubby, and most of US are, Appendix might not work so hot.

The right holster and belt are imperative. The right gun is imperative but I find I can conceal a Cadillac in Appendix now that I have a pocket (lean belly) at that position. An untucked T with a Wife Beater underneath, leather of structured Kydex holster, and a wide/stiff belt makes even a full sized Beretta Px4 literally disappear.

Lean middle and the right stuff makes Appendix The Bomb. Extra jiggle and a skinny belt and a short barrel gun means poke, poke, poke. As well, a lot of it is getting used to carrying - The first 3 months I thought "Shit! my gun is printing!!* but really I'm 62 years old and while fit (and extremely attractive!!) *no one* is looking at my ass or my midsection. No One. A little tell tale ripple from the butt of the gun under my shirt?

Nobody knows or cares. Nobody is scanning my abs or midsection looking for a bulge if you get my drift. We don't do that in 21st century America. I can hide a Cadillac.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#6 Post by featureless » Tue May 15, 2018 8:34 pm

Well, I can't claim visible abs, but I can't claim a dunlop either. The m&p seems more stable than the shield but is also thicker and twice as heavy. I do have a good holster and carry belt. Carry would be unchambered (I know the arguements against that idea). If someone's beating on me, they are too close in my opinion to introduce a gun into the equation anyway, so racking time isn't the issue. Time to make some space. :)

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Re: Appendix Carry

#7 Post by khlavkalash » Wed May 16, 2018 5:19 am

Nevada doesn't care if you go into bars, can even drink up to 0.1%. Can't carry in government buildings or schools. Other places can be posted but you can only be in trouble if you refuse to leave when confronted.

Utah I'm not sure they have alcohol ( :) ), but they allow you carry in schools.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#8 Post by VodoundaVinci » Wed May 16, 2018 6:59 am

Sounds like the OP just needs to get accustomed to Appendix. It's not for everyone but I found the advantages work so well that it was worth a little extra time in getting used to it. I must have a tolerance to it....I never found it uncomfortable. Thickness of the gun and overall length seem to be the things that are the deciding factors as well as holster design. Lots of folks swear by fancy kydex stuff with outriggers and lots of stuff but the plain old High Noon leather holsters have worked for me. I use the Hidden Ally and Upper Cut are like $30 and work great for me.

https://www.highnoonholsters.com/leathe ... idden-ally

https://www.highnoonholsters.com/leathe ... /upper-cut

My Appendix Carry Guns are a Beretta Px4 Subcompact 9mm and a S&W 6906 Compact. The Beretta is my favorite but the S&W actually carries better because it is a little bit longer. The really stubby guns seems to want to have the butt of the gun tip outward away from the body and the Px4 does this to me. The 6906 is enough longer that there is more down my pants and it stays tucked to the body better.

High Noon also makes a great Appendix Specific holster - The Instinct Extreme. Carried a Glock 26 and a Glock 43 in these holsters and if one likes Kydex these are awesome....

https://www.highnoonholsters.com/instinct-extreme

I think like anything else Appendix can be a very personal choice and takes some getting used to for some folks. It was a natural gravitation to me because when I started I'd walk around the house with an unloaded gun tucked in my waistband to find the best carry position before I bought holsters. Appendix just settled in as my favorite.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#9 Post by shinzen » Wed May 16, 2018 9:32 am

I will say, get some practice in drawing from concealment. Everyone is a bit different, for me I settled on a 4 o'clock holster position and prefer Kydex IWB- the hybrid holsters and leather holsters tend to collapse which makes re-holstering problematic. You'll want to make sure you pull your shirt out of the way for both drawing and re-holstering, as a stray bit of shirt stuck in the trigger guard will make for a very bad day.

Appendix carry does put you more at risk of sweeping yourself with your barrel than other options, which does make it, in my opinion, a more dangerous spot than elsewhere for re-holstering, particularly if the adrenaline is up.
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Re: Appendix Carry

#10 Post by featureless » Wed May 16, 2018 11:02 am

shinzen wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:32 am
I will say, get some practice in drawing from concealment. Everyone is a bit different, for me I settled on a 4 o'clock holster position and prefer Kydex IWB- the hybrid holsters and leather holsters tend to collapse which makes re-holstering problematic. You'll want to make sure you pull your shirt out of the way for both drawing and re-holstering, as a stray bit of shirt stuck in the trigger guard will make for a very bad day.

Appendix carry does put you more at risk of sweeping yourself with your barrel than other options, which does make it, in my opinion, a more dangerous spot than elsewhere for re-holstering, particularly if the adrenaline is up.
Thanks for this. Yes, much practice will be performed. I don't intend to carry chambered, so will practice draw, rack, point, pull, assess, unload, reholster (with snap caps). This is a first run for me to determine if pursuing a CA ccw is worth the trouble (if we ever get a different sheriff or change in current law, not possible for us commoners in my county under the current system).

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Re: Appendix Carry

#11 Post by joe4570 » Wed May 16, 2018 6:09 pm

situational awareness precludes your version of a fast draw. never draw on a gun pointed at you. if your well into the danger zone, the gun is already in your hand. your California defense lawyer can get hold of a good lawyer wherever you are and get you out of trouble? maybe talk to your lawyer before your trip?

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Re: Appendix Carry

#12 Post by featureless » Wed May 16, 2018 6:22 pm

:beer2:
joe4570 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:09 pm
situational awareness precludes your version of a fast draw. never draw on a gun pointed at you. if your well into the danger zone, the gun is already in your hand. your California defense lawyer can get hold of a good lawyer wherever you are and get you out of trouble? maybe talk to your lawyer before your trip?
Not really too worried about the possibility of a gun being pointed at me. Not too worried about having to draw either, fast or slow. It could happen, but hasn't yet in my 45 years. It's more of I want to take a gun with me for the overnights and the potential for general mayhem and not wanting to leave it in the car. Nothing lawyers can do here in California to change things so far, unless I'm missing your point.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#13 Post by BillMcD » Wed May 16, 2018 8:39 pm

featureless wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:22 pm
:beer2:
joe4570 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:09 pm
situational awareness precludes your version of a fast draw. never draw on a gun pointed at you. if your well into the danger zone, the gun is already in your hand. your California defense lawyer can get hold of a good lawyer wherever you are and get you out of trouble? maybe talk to your lawyer before your trip?
Not really too worried about the possibility of a gun being pointed at me. Not too worried about having to draw either, fast or slow. It could happen, but hasn't yet in my 45 years. It's more of I want to take a gun with me for the overnights and the potential for general mayhem and not wanting to leave it in the car. Nothing lawyers can do here in California to change things so far, unless I'm missing your point.
The idea is that in order for a firearm to protect against a firearm or knife, you have to have it drawn already. That means either they're trying to break in or it means you're already armed and dangerous which is not normally legal. Concealed carry is not a very effective defense as it is reactive, not protective or deterring. Trying to draw on someone who already has drawn on you is suicidal unless you're armored or in cover. Cover requires situational awareness. Armor requires money and sacrificing comfort for the very unlikely chance of being mugged if you have an ounce of common sense.

This isn't to say you shouldn't carry if you legally can, but it requires a certain mindset that is hard to maintain for it to be effective. Best practices involve threat evaluation as part of every day thought and being proactive about your safety in ways that don't involve just your firearm. It is a tool, not a solution.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#14 Post by featureless » Wed May 16, 2018 9:07 pm

BillMcD wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:39 pm

The idea is that in order for a firearm to protect against a firearm or knife, you have to have it drawn already. That means either they're trying to break in or it means you're already armed and dangerous which is not normally legal. Concealed carry is not a very effective defense as it is reactive, not protective or deterring. Trying to draw on someone who already has drawn on you is suicidal unless you're armored or in cover. Cover requires situational awareness. Armor requires money and sacrificing comfort for the very unlikely chance of being mugged if you have an ounce of common sense.

This isn't to say you shouldn't carry if you legally can, but it requires a certain mindset that is hard to maintain for it to be effective. Best practices involve threat evaluation as part of every day thought and being proactive about your safety in ways that don't involve just your firearm. It is a tool, not a solution.
No disagreement there. I've been relying on situational awareness since I was old enough to wander around unsupervised. :)

I look at it as an experiment in adding another tool to the kit. It's a temporary thing for me based on my resdence; Arizona trusts my record of being a good citizen and issued a nonresident ccw permit but I need to be assaulted in my home town before they'll even consider issuing me or others a ccw permit. Go figure.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#15 Post by AndyH » Wed May 16, 2018 9:15 pm

featureless wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 5:33 pm
So, I'll be on a couple of week road trip this summer in states that will permit this otherwise unauthorized Californian to carry under my Arizona CCW permit. I've never carried before (see location). Having fated around with some various holsters around the house, appendix carry seems to work the best for me. I've got a couple of questions for those that get to do this stuff on a regular basis.

1) What do you do with the gun when driving more than an hour or so? Just suck it up and live with the poke in the gut?
I carry a G19 in-waistband at just past 3 o'clock - it's comfortable sitting, standing, and driving, and I can draw around the seatbelt. The only time I get any pokage ;) is from the top of the Concealment Express kydex when the pistol's out of the holster. It's just far enough back that I can easily get my keys out of the right front jeans pocket. I carry a spare mag at 9 o'clock - that's less noticeable than the gun.

Enjoy the trip! I look forward to hearing how you feel once you're back home.

ETA...appendix. (shiver) I can pedestal and reholster at 3 o'clock and not shoot myself in the foot or thigh or butt. ND into the junk? No, not interested in bringing back the admonition to not go off half-cocked. :roflmao:
Last edited by AndyH on Wed May 16, 2018 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Appendix Carry

#16 Post by featureless » Wed May 16, 2018 9:22 pm

Thanks, Andy. Still need to finish that HAM book. Work's been insane lately....

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Re: Appendix Carry

#17 Post by AndyH » Wed May 16, 2018 9:26 pm

featureless wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:22 pm
Thanks, Andy. Still need to finish that HAM book. Work's been insane lately....
No worries, man - it'll happen when it's time. 8-)
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Re: Appendix Carry

#18 Post by featureless » Wed May 16, 2018 9:32 pm

AndyH wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:26 pm
featureless wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:22 pm
Thanks, Andy. Still need to finish that HAM book. Work's been insane lately....
No worries, man - it'll happen when it's time. 8-)
Yeah, it's just frustrating sometimes when work gets in the way of fun. Adulting n shit.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#19 Post by Wino » Thu May 17, 2018 10:11 am

Don't over think CC. As was mentioned earlier, no one pays any attention to bumps or small mass under an untucked shirt - of course a Speedo lycra shirt not recommended. I quit IWB several years ago and only OWB with belt holsters under untucked shirt. IWB is just a PITA IMO and uncomfortable for all day wear., difficult to access, unless you're Clark Kent. As for appendix carry, for me never. I carry in Condition 1 w/safety on. I carry at 3:30- 4:00 and able to draw from holster when driving and belted in (shirt pulled up and behind pistol) for local drive around. Longer distance, I have a velcroed holster attached to back of center console of both vehicles which I may place CC and holster when I exit auto. For long trips, my EDC plus another full size pistol in console holster, both in condition 1, both easily accessible, with two spare mags for each in door pocket.

If you do appendix carry, I'd recommend a clipless Remora holster with full sweat shield - easily placed or adjusted for comfort when driving or walking or whatever.
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Re: Appendix Carry

#20 Post by joe4570 » Thu May 17, 2018 3:46 pm

ok, guns and lawyers. the perfect carry gun would have a cellphone in the grip with the number of the best defense lawyer in the county on speed dial. if your carrying a gun and don't have a lawyer (please, not your wifes divorce lawyer), your only doing half of the job. any decent defense attorney in Ca. should have contacts, organizations, friends in the business that could get you a lawyer even if your in Moosepaw, Montana. if you ever have to use the gun, call the lawyer (the lawyer can call 911 for you or have you call and give the address, your description and the words, "help, I've been attacked, I need medical and cops".
you are not required to stay on the phone or offer anymore info, that's the lawyers job. your job is to reholster if it's safe, guard any evidence, get in the ambulance( shock, heart, stroke real or imagined under stress) and don't say another word. shut up. really, carrying a gun is serious.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#21 Post by AndyH » Sat May 19, 2018 12:25 am

joe4570 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:46 pm
ok, guns and lawyers. the perfect carry gun would have a cellphone in the grip with the number of the best defense lawyer in the county on speed dial. if your carrying a gun and don't have a lawyer (please, not your wifes divorce lawyer), your only doing half of the job. any decent defense attorney in Ca. should have contacts, organizations, friends in the business that could get you a lawyer even if your in Moosepaw, Montana. if you ever have to use the gun, call the lawyer (the lawyer can call 911 for you or have you call and give the address, your description and the words, "help, I've been attacked, I need medical and cops".
you are not required to stay on the phone or offer anymore info, that's the lawyers job. your job is to reholster if it's safe, guard any evidence, get in the ambulance( shock, heart, stroke real or imagined under stress) and don't say another word. shut up. really, carrying a gun is serious.
Carrying a gun is serious. Using it is too. I recommend Branca's book and Ayoob's stuff. Do call 911. Do talk to the police as far as it takes to make sure they know you're the victim, that guy over there bleeding is the attacker, these are witnesses, and over there's where the attacker threw his gun/knife/katana. Then stop talking until the attorney arrives.

Branca advises this for 911:
My name is (first, last). I'm at (address). I was attacked. I was in fear for my life. I had to defend myself. Please send police and an ambulance at quickly as possible.
And for the first officer on the scene:
- Give your name (Now they know you're the person that called 911 and are the complainant, not the respondant.
- Give three specific sentences about what happened and why: I was attacked, I was in fear for my life (my family, etc.), I had to defend myself.
- Identify exculpatory evidence and witnesses. (The jury is only allowed to consider evidence - if evidence disappears or isn't pointed out, it doesn't exist.)
- Request medical attention (this is where Ayoob and Branca differ. They both advise medical attention on scene if you are injured, but also advise not to get an ambulance ride 'just in case' as theft of services or fraud can be claimed by a prosecutor - and our defense needs us to be seen as a truthful person.)
- Finish with the 'magic words': I assert my right to silence. I assert my right to counsel.
(From Branca's third edition of The Law of Self Defense, P140-148)

They both recommend giving a trusted person contact info for the attorney and/or support network (ACLDN, Law Shield, etc.). You call the trusted person (spouse, etc.) and they call the attorney and network emergency number.
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Re: Appendix Carry

#22 Post by AlabamaYankee » Mon May 21, 2018 6:04 am

I carry a revolver in a Remora holster. There is no holster clip, it is held by friction inner waist band. My version is the reinforcement model (kinda keeps the top of the holster pushed open even without a weapon inserted) which makes it easier to draw.

I can carry appendix outside the car, and at 3 o'clock inside the car. All I have to do is nudge the holster a bit when getting in or getting out of the car to position it where I want. I never have to take the holster off when I am out and about. That's the beauty of the no clip holster.

So inside the car it is 100% comfortable and easy to draw from and outside it scoots over to be well hidden as appendix. All in one motion and easy to do.

And by the way, in a situation like a restaurant it works just as well. As I go to sit down I apply a small nudge on the Remora and it moves to the 3 o'clock position. Comfortable and easy to draw. In a public place I do choose my seating carefully - as you probably know for multiple reasons one of which is concealment.

You can get a sense of it here in this video.. 'tho for me, I need not remove the holster to nudge it between 3 o'clock and appendix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4UzkOEkJJY

Just for full disclosure I am carrying a Ruger LCR 327 - which is a small snubby.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#23 Post by RumRunner » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:44 pm

My gun on my hip, at my 3 or 4 o’clock is just fine for drives under an hour. After that, it gets old, and that’s when a shoulder holster really starts to shine. Love it.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#24 Post by polymath » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:41 pm

For a good per-state summary of the laws, I like https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078V ... UTF8&psc=1.

And as far as legal CYA, https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/.

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Re: Appendix Carry

#25 Post by highdesert » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:27 pm

Carry and wear whatever is most comfortable for you, you be in and out of vehicles and sitting and walking. The Shield will probably be the most comfortable it's, 10 rounds but you cal always carry and extra mag. Highly unlikely that you'll encounter any problems. I've carried in AZ, NV and NM, not in UT, CO or ID. AZ doesn't allow CWP holders to drink alcohol in a bar while carrying, but you can eat there. It's ok to carry in bars in NV (they are everywhere in casinos), but you can be charged for carrying if caught with a .10 blood level. Have Fun !

Two good websites:
http://www.handgunlaw.us
https://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carr ... _maps.html
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