rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

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BillMcD
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rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#1 Post by BillMcD » Tue May 29, 2018 9:15 am

I have another cross section question so i put it in the higher up folder for the time being.

I've been looking at shorter rifles and the idea of SBRs and "AR and AK pistols" and am trying to figure out what is still practical without it becoming a range toy only. I have been thinking about this since my failed foray into ARs. While I'm not fundamentally against ARs, i just don't like the ergos of the charging handle and weight balance. A pistol length barrel and handguard would certainly change the point of balance. I can find side charging AR uppers online, but finding a good one in a good caliber might be difficult. So, here comes my inevitable list of questions:

What calibers, if any, are practical for mid to large size hunting(specifically for dealing with emergencies like black bears, cougars, and angry boars rather than hunting for elk) in short (7-10") barrels with pistol/carbine length gas systems? (defensive use is assumed to be viable)
What is the ammo availability/cost?
Are there any recommended models with a good value proposition (price per performance). I am looking for side chargers so that throws a wrench into the works for ARs if im not building.
Are there pitfalls i need to avoid? (aside from cheaping out on gas systems. I learned that the hard way.)

I am willing and able to build an AR pistol, but I would have to buy an AK or similar platform whole. I know some AK pistols suffer from welded thread caps preventing the use of flash hiders which I would want for indoor range use.

I would rather not go for an actual SBR due to the issues of NFA stamps and ATF approval times. I really wish that the NFA would stop getting in the way... :wall: seriously congress. You say you're going to do things and then never do them...

EDIT: this isn't to say I have a problem with range toys, but with my current budget, shooting just to shoot means i need cheap ammo...

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#2 Post by Buck13 » Tue May 29, 2018 10:52 am

"Hunting" is not an emergency. Are you interested in hunting or woods defense?

For handgun hunting, I'd get a .44 Magnum with 6" to 7.5" barrel or a 10 mm auto with a 6" barrel, and a red dot on either. I think you can get even longer drop-in barrels for a Glock 20 or 40 (protruding from the front of the slide) if you want to really maximize the velocity.

For woods defense, I'd go with the same calibers but the next size down in barrel length or maybe an 8-shot .357 Redhawk, iron sights, and practice your draw and first shot A LOT.

Yes, you'd get better ballistics from a rifle cartridge, but at the expense of awkwardness and a HELL of a lot of muzzle blast. SBRs are really loud. And are you really going to carry that thing around all the time until an emergency arises?

I was running my chrono at the range on Sunday and a guy asked me to shoot a few rounds through it from a 9 mm "it's not a rifle" SBR fake pistol. The "arm brace" was more obviously a shoulder stock than usual. Awkward as hell to aim without accidentally shouldering it. Even sitting at a bench with my arms rested, it was a chore. My group was recognizable as such, but laying on a bench like that, I could have done as well with my magnum revolvers or the EAA Hunter I just put in consignment (or a Glock 40, based on how well the Glock 34 I rented recently worked), probably better. Hell, *standing* I'd have done almost as well. (That last bit is slightly exaggerated, but...)

I think these things are just for SBR fetishists who want to think they are putting one over on the gubmint. But my actual experience with them is the chrono session above, so what do I know?
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#3 Post by BillMcD » Tue May 29, 2018 12:54 pm

Buck13 wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:52 am
"Hunting" is not an emergency. Are you interested in hunting or woods defense?

For handgun hunting, I'd get a .44 Magnum with 6" to 7.5" barrel or a 10 mm auto with a 6" barrel, and a red dot on either. I think you can get even longer drop-in barrels for a Glock 20 or 40 (protruding from the front of the slide) if you want to really maximize the velocity.

For woods defense, I'd go with the same calibers but the next size down in barrel length or maybe an 8-shot .357 Redhawk, iron sights, and practice your draw and first shot A LOT.

Yes, you'd get better ballistics from a rifle cartridge, but at the expense of awkwardness and a HELL of a lot of muzzle blast. SBRs are really loud. And are you really going to carry that thing around all the time until an emergency arises?

I was running my chrono at the range on Sunday and a guy asked me to shoot a few rounds through it from a 9 mm "it's not a rifle" SBR fake pistol. The "arm brace" was more obviously a shoulder stock than usual. Awkward as hell to aim without accidentally shouldering it. Even sitting at a bench with my arms rested, it was a chore. My group was recognizable as such, but laying on a bench like that, I could have done as well with my magnum revolvers or the EAA Hunter I just put in consignment (or a Glock 40, based on how well the Glock 34 I rented recently worked), probably better. Hell, *standing* I'd have done almost as well. (That last bit is slightly exaggerated, but...)

I think these things are just for SBR fetishists who want to think they are putting one over on the gubmint. But my actual experience with them is the chrono session above, so what do I know?
i guess I wasn't clear. I don't mean carrying it around for defense in the woods as much as if im hunting, i want my primary weapon to be capable of taking care of most anything im going to face in the woods. This is mostly just a feasibility check and whether or not a rifle pistol is more than a range toy. I already know about magnum revolvers, and was debating on getting a 44 at some point but i already have a 357 and a 44 may be overkill considering i don't expect to even see a grizzly on my side of the country, much less shoot one.

This is more about the practicality of hunting with an SBR pistol as compared to trying to use a full length of the same caliber, which ones might be more practical, or if i should just not really bother. I've already spent enough on range toys to last me this year >.<.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#4 Post by offensivename » Tue May 29, 2018 1:22 pm

As far as AR-15 calibers go .300BLK works well out of a short barrel and should have enough energy to hunt with.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#5 Post by Marlene » Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 pm

It is not an appropriate tool for hunting. A barrel that short is not going to give you anywhere close to full power from any of the appropriate cartridges for that platform.
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#6 Post by senorgrand » Tue May 29, 2018 2:29 pm

You already have a 357? How about a mare's leg?
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#7 Post by BillMcD » Tue May 29, 2018 2:46 pm

offensivename wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 1:22 pm
As far as AR-15 calibers go .300BLK works well out of a short barrel and should have enough energy to hunt with.
That and x39 were what I was looking at primarily. x39 just doesn't seem to feed reliably into an AR platform, and I wish .300BLK was available with cheaper target ammo. I would have to be handloading cartridges for it.
Marlene wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 pm
It is not an appropriate tool for hunting. A barrel that short is not going to give you anywhere close to full power from any of the appropriate cartridges for that platform.
While some cartridges seem to seem to perform better, I tend to agree with the low pressure and slow burning cartridges on the cheap end of ammo.
senorgrand wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:29 pm
You already have a 357? How about a mare's leg?
I've been looking for a 357 carbine but i need to mount a scope because my eyesight just isn't good enough. I've been debating either a henry or a marlin 1894 because of side ejection but they each have their issues.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#8 Post by senorgrand » Tue May 29, 2018 2:49 pm

My eyesight is shit too. You could mount a red dot on a mare's leg and have a pretty sweet setup. Not sure what a 357 will do from a 12", but out of a 16", it'll drop a deer within 50y.
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#9 Post by eelj » Wed May 30, 2018 9:28 am

Having had experience hunting with a handgun I would not choose one of those pistols. When hunting you are rarely able to shoot from a position that gives you the support of a bench, much of the time it will be from a kneeling position or maybe leaning up against a tree.

Then there is the problem of holstering it, some people can carry a pistol around their neck like a necklace, it has always caused terrible lower back pain. I find for hunting a good revolver in 44mag or 45colt in a good hip holster to be ideal. It will be out of the way allowing you easy access to a camera or binoculars yet it will always be right there if needed.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#10 Post by TrueTexan » Wed May 30, 2018 11:24 am

The Henry Steel in 357 or 44Mag are already tapped for a scope and you could mount a rail on it then put what ever your heart desires on it. Also Buffalo Bore sells a 357 round that exceeds the ballistics of a 30/30. The 357 and the 44 mag have taken every big game animal in North America. The nice thing about both cartridges, if you reload they can be load soft and easy like a 38 wadcutter or 44 Russian load to Holy hot loads if you have the gun for that and there is established load data for those loads.

For hunting here in Texas the worst you could come across, besides two legged varmits, is the feral hogs. They are a pain but not the super invincible hog that many make them out to be. A person that works for my wife routinely takes one or two a year for the meat using a bow and arrow. He does carry a sidearm just in case but has never had to use it. The people that say you have to have an AR15 and thirty rounds to kill a hog are just piss poor shooters.
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#11 Post by Buck13 » Wed May 30, 2018 11:34 am

senorgrand wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:49 pm
My eyesight is shit too. You could mount a red dot on a mare's leg and have a pretty sweet setup. Not sure what a 357 will do from a 12", but out of a 16", it'll drop a deer within 50y.
The difference between 12" and 16" won't be much with a .357. The case volume is too small to support that much expansion. BBTI says you'll get maybe another 100 fps. Is that the difference between success and failure?

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

If my memory isn't completely kakked, I got over 1900 fps from my 24" Rossi 92 with 158 grain bullets, but that was handloading with a big pile of Lil'Gun powder. I would expect the velocity graph would be right-shifted only a little, if any, compared to the BBTI ammo. More than a cosmetic difference between a 16" and 20" barrel would surprise me. I wish I had one of each to test with! :fun:

Those mare's legs still look pretty awkward to me. Without having actually tried one, I'm willing to bet that I'd prefer either a real rifle or a real conventional handgun. Are they as easy to cycle quickly as a lever carbine? I'm skeptical of that.

A 16" Rossi 92 would be a great choice for this sort of short range hunting. I believe the round-barrel 92s all have the barrel already drilled and tapped for a sight base (or at least, all made after some date that I forget), so a red-dot or a tiny, low-powered scope would be a piece of cake. Unfortunately, the SASS crowd have made them into unobtainium in .357. Shooting a lot in .44 or .45 would be pricey. OTOH, there's not a pig in the world that would shrug off one of these going 1500 fps.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/76178 ... box-of-100

I know, this is not helping. :sorry:
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#12 Post by BillMcD » Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 pm

TrueTexan wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:24 am
The Henry Steel in 357 or 44Mag are already tapped for a scope and you could mount a rail on it then put what ever your heart desires on it. Also Buffalo Bore sells a 357 round that exceeds the ballistics of a 30/30. The 357 and the 44 mag have taken every big game animal in North America. The nice thing about both cartridges, if you reload they can be load soft and easy like a 38 wadcutter or 44 Russian load to Holy hot loads if you have the gun for that and there is established load data for those loads.

For hunting here in Texas the worst you could come across, besides two legged varmits, is the feral hogs. They are a pain but not the super invincible hog that many make them out to be. A person that works for my wife routinely takes one or two a year for the meat using a bow and arrow. He does carry a sidearm just in case but has never had to use it. The people that say you have to have an AR15 and thirty rounds to kill a hog are just piss poor shooters.
Yeah, not sure why people take ar-15s (in .223) hog hunting. A few people make high claims about pinpoint shots but I don't buy it. I could do a 300 blackout pistol but considering the cost of ammo, I would just be better off waiting on my rifle to come in. If I somehow luck into one, I'll probably modify it to have an adjustable gas block and a side charging upper, along with probably tossing whatever muzzle break they throw on it and replacing it with a flash hider. I really wish that silencer bill wasn't dead in the water. I can safely say the SBR bit is dead for the time being.
Buck13 wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:34 am
senorgrand wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:49 pm
My eyesight is shit too. You could mount a red dot on a mare's leg and have a pretty sweet setup. Not sure what a 357 will do from a 12", but out of a 16", it'll drop a deer within 50y.
The difference between 12" and 16" won't be much with a .357. The case volume is too small to support that much expansion. BBTI says you'll get maybe another 100 fps. Is that the difference between success and failure?

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

If my memory isn't completely kakked, I got over 1900 fps from my 24" Rossi 92 with 158 grain bullets, but that was handloading with a big pile of Lil'Gun powder. I would expect the velocity graph would be right-shifted only a little, if any, compared to the BBTI ammo. More than a cosmetic difference between a 16" and 20" barrel would surprise me. I wish I had one of each to test with! :fun:

Those mare's legs still look pretty awkward to me. Without having actually tried one, I'm willing to bet that I'd prefer either a real rifle or a real conventional handgun. Are they as easy to cycle quickly as a lever carbine? I'm skeptical of that.

A 16" Rossi 92 would be a great choice for this sort of short range hunting. I believe the round-barrel 92s all have the barrel already drilled and tapped for a sight base (or at least, all made after some date that I forget), so a red-dot or a tiny, low-powered scope would be a piece of cake. Unfortunately, the SASS crowd have made them into unobtainium in .357. Shooting a lot in .44 or .45 would be pricey. OTOH, there's not a pig in the world that would shrug off one of these going 1500 fps.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/76178 ... box-of-100

I know, this is not helping. :sorry:
Considering what is available and reliable in the lever action market I'm probably getting a steel henry carbine in 357 when i find one. At least some of the modern comforts on it kept the SASS competitors and sharks from buying them out. Marlin is still suffering under freedom group with bad quality control and any original ones cost a pretty penny. Rossi's have their scope mounts forward of the ejection port giving a bit too much eye relief for magnification and I don't see a lot of point to a red dot while hunting. I don't feel like putting money into 44/45 when I already have it in 38, especially when reloading becomes necessity to keep the cost of ammo down.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#13 Post by AndyH » Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 am

BillMcD wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:24 am
For hunting here in Texas the worst you could come across, besides two legged varmits, is the feral hogs. They are a pain but not the super invincible hog that many make them out to be. A person that works for my wife routinely takes one or two a year for the meat using a bow and arrow. He does carry a sidearm just in case but has never had to use it. The people that say you have to have an AR15 and thirty rounds to kill a hog are just piss poor shooters.
Yeah, not sure why people take ar-15s (in .223) hog hunting. A few people make high claims about pinpoint shots but I don't buy it. I could do a 300 blackout pistol but considering the cost of ammo, I would just be better off waiting on my rifle to come in. If I somehow luck into one, I'll probably modify it to have an adjustable gas block and a side charging upper, along with probably tossing whatever muzzle break they throw on it and replacing it with a flash hider. I really wish that silencer bill wasn't dead in the water. I can safely say the SBR bit is dead for the time being.
Why do people use AR-15s for hogs? Because they have them and because they can? Hogs aren't considered 'game' - they're property in Texas, so most hunting rules don't apply. No worries, though - a suppressed .22LR will work just fine as well.



I don't understand what you are saying about 'claims' of 'pinpoint shots'. I'm not a master with a rifle by any means. My avatar is my most recent 10-shot group at 100 yards from my project AR-10 in .308 with my homemade suppressor. The red square is 5/8" on a side.

PS - a Rifle Caliber Pistol thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43397
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#14 Post by BillMcD » Thu May 31, 2018 6:42 am

AndyH wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 am
BillMcD wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:24 am
For hunting here in Texas the worst you could come across, besides two legged varmits, is the feral hogs. They are a pain but not the super invincible hog that many make them out to be. A person that works for my wife routinely takes one or two a year for the meat using a bow and arrow. He does carry a sidearm just in case but has never had to use it. The people that say you have to have an AR15 and thirty rounds to kill a hog are just piss poor shooters.
Yeah, not sure why people take ar-15s (in .223) hog hunting. A few people make high claims about pinpoint shots but I don't buy it. I could do a 300 blackout pistol but considering the cost of ammo, I would just be better off waiting on my rifle to come in. If I somehow luck into one, I'll probably modify it to have an adjustable gas block and a side charging upper, along with probably tossing whatever muzzle break they throw on it and replacing it with a flash hider. I really wish that silencer bill wasn't dead in the water. I can safely say the SBR bit is dead for the time being.
Why do people use AR-15s for hogs? Because they have them and because they can? Hogs aren't considered 'game' - they're property in Texas, so most hunting rules don't apply. No worries, though - a suppressed .22LR will work just fine as well.



I don't understand what you are saying about 'claims' of 'pinpoint shots'. I'm not a master with a rifle by any means. My avatar is my most recent 10-shot group at 100 yards from my project AR-10 in .308 with my homemade suppressor. The red square is 5/8" on a side.

PS - a Rifle Caliber Pistol thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43397
I would still rather air on the side of caution and go big rather than take risks with smaller calibers. I'm not so confident in my shooting. Also "property?" I know they're an invasive species but if people are intentionally raising things just to hunt them... that feels a bit counterproductive imo.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#15 Post by BillMcD » Thu May 31, 2018 6:42 am

AndyH wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 am
BillMcD wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:24 am
For hunting here in Texas the worst you could come across, besides two legged varmits, is the feral hogs. They are a pain but not the super invincible hog that many make them out to be. A person that works for my wife routinely takes one or two a year for the meat using a bow and arrow. He does carry a sidearm just in case but has never had to use it. The people that say you have to have an AR15 and thirty rounds to kill a hog are just piss poor shooters.
Yeah, not sure why people take ar-15s (in .223) hog hunting. A few people make high claims about pinpoint shots but I don't buy it. I could do a 300 blackout pistol but considering the cost of ammo, I would just be better off waiting on my rifle to come in. If I somehow luck into one, I'll probably modify it to have an adjustable gas block and a side charging upper, along with probably tossing whatever muzzle break they throw on it and replacing it with a flash hider. I really wish that silencer bill wasn't dead in the water. I can safely say the SBR bit is dead for the time being.
Why do people use AR-15s for hogs? Because they have them and because they can? Hogs aren't considered 'game' - they're property in Texas, so most hunting rules don't apply. No worries, though - a suppressed .22LR will work just fine as well.

I don't understand what you are saying about 'claims' of 'pinpoint shots'. I'm not a master with a rifle by any means. My avatar is my most recent 10-shot group at 100 yards from my project AR-10 in .308 with my homemade suppressor. The red square is 5/8" on a side.

PS - a Rifle Caliber Pistol thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43397
I would still rather air on the side of caution and go big rather than take risks with smaller calibers. I'm not so confident in my shooting. Also "property?" I know they're an invasive species but if people are intentionally raising things just to hunt them... that feels a bit counterproductive imo.

Also i've been trying to avoid the general chat because of the news and politics get really depressing. I forget that search functions are a thing sometimes.

Half of this is the wait on getting my rifle is killing me.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#16 Post by Buck13 » Thu May 31, 2018 9:16 am

AndyH wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 am
Why do people use AR-15s for hogs? Because they have them and because they can?
In a poorly-informed defense of that use, bullets have gotten A LOT better. I'd like some more specific evidence that these would penetrate on a big boar before I tried it, but if any .223 bullet can work, I'd bet on this. From a rifle-length barrel, that is.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/66680 ... -box-of-20

They probably won't shoot from a conventional twist rate? Better have at least 1:8.
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#17 Post by AndyH » Thu May 31, 2018 1:42 pm

BillMcD wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:42 am
AndyH wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 am
BillMcD wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:24 am
For hunting here in Texas the worst you could come across, besides two legged varmits, is the feral hogs. They are a pain but not the super invincible hog that many make them out to be. A person that works for my wife routinely takes one or two a year for the meat using a bow and arrow. He does carry a sidearm just in case but has never had to use it. The people that say you have to have an AR15 and thirty rounds to kill a hog are just piss poor shooters.
Yeah, not sure why people take ar-15s (in .223) hog hunting. A few people make high claims about pinpoint shots but I don't buy it. I could do a 300 blackout pistol but considering the cost of ammo, I would just be better off waiting on my rifle to come in. If I somehow luck into one, I'll probably modify it to have an adjustable gas block and a side charging upper, along with probably tossing whatever muzzle break they throw on it and replacing it with a flash hider. I really wish that silencer bill wasn't dead in the water. I can safely say the SBR bit is dead for the time being.
Why do people use AR-15s for hogs? Because they have them and because they can? Hogs aren't considered 'game' - they're property in Texas, so most hunting rules don't apply. No worries, though - a suppressed .22LR will work just fine as well.

I don't understand what you are saying about 'claims' of 'pinpoint shots'. I'm not a master with a rifle by any means. My avatar is my most recent 10-shot group at 100 yards from my project AR-10 in .308 with my homemade suppressor. The red square is 5/8" on a side.

PS - a Rifle Caliber Pistol thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43397
I would still rather air on the side of caution and go big rather than take risks with smaller calibers. I'm not so confident in my shooting. Also "property?" I know they're an invasive species but if people are intentionally raising things just to hunt them... that feels a bit counterproductive imo.

Also i've been trying to avoid the general chat because of the news and politics get really depressing. I forget that search functions are a thing sometimes.

Half of this is the wait on getting my rifle is killing me.
The 'property' designation for feral hogs doesn't mean people are breeding them - it just means that people can kill what's on their property without a hunting license, and that regular hunting rules like caliber or magazine sizes don't apply. As for caliber, I agree - that's why I built my .308 for general purpose hunting. But a personal preference doesn't negate the efficacy of much smaller chunks of lead.

I still don't understand what you mean about pinpoint shooting. Maybe you're a pistol shooter first and new to rifles? I'm the opposite. If so, that makes sense. Pistols aren't the most accurate knives in the drawer. ;)
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#18 Post by rascally » Thu May 31, 2018 5:03 pm

Buck13 wrote:
AndyH wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 am
Why do people use AR-15s for hogs? Because they have them and because they can?
In a poorly-informed defense of that use, bullets have gotten A LOT better. I'd like some more specific evidence that these would penetrate on a big boar before I tried it, but if any .223 bullet can work, I'd bet on this. From a rifle-length barrel, that is.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/66680 ... -box-of-20

They probably won't shoot from a conventional twist rate? Better have at least 1:8.
Not to be a "caliber Nazi", but I'll point out that these are 5.56 mm, not .223 cal. I do not recommend shooting them in a .223 cal chamber. 5.56 mm ammo is loaded to significantly higher pressure than .223 cal., and the chamber is slightly different to allow that.

Standard twist rate in a modern AR is 1/7. This is to stabilize the heavier ammo available today. 1/8 should also work for this ammo.

Part of the reason the AR has the accuracy reputation that it does is because people have a 1/7 twist barrel, and they're shooting the cheapest ammo they can find (usually 55 gr.) which is better suited to a 1/9, or even a 1/12 twist barrel (the original spec).

Details occasionally matter...

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#19 Post by Buck13 » Thu May 31, 2018 5:56 pm

rascally wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:03 pm
Not to be a "caliber Nazi", but I'll point out that these are 5.56 mm, not .223 cal. I do not recommend shooting them in a .223 cal chamber. 5.56 mm ammo is loaded to significantly higher pressure than .223 cal., and the chamber is slightly different to allow that.
Hah. I knew someone would call me on that!

However, to be counter-pedantic, these ARE .223 caliber bullets, or rather they are .224 and intended for a .223 diameter bore. The ammo shown is NOT .223 Remington, which is the name of that cartridge. The cartridges are not interchangeable, but the bullets are, and I did say ".223 bullet." So , we are both technically correct. "The best kind of correct."
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#20 Post by DavidMS » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:20 am

I have handled (many) and fired (one) ersatz SBR rifles. The only one that I feel isn't a complete joke is a 10.5" to 12.5" .300 Blackout gun and put a arm brace on it while waiting for the tax stamp. Officially, its designed to work best in a 9" barrel but, I'd prefer the muzzle blast to be a bit farther from my face. It will have a bit more KE than a .30 Carbine.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#21 Post by rascally » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:38 pm

Buck13 wrote:
rascally wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:03 pm
Not to be a "caliber Nazi", but I'll point out that these are 5.56 mm, not .223 cal. I do not recommend shooting them in a .223 cal chamber. 5.56 mm ammo is loaded to significantly higher pressure than .223 cal., and the chamber is slightly different to allow that.
Hah. I knew someone would call me on that!

However, to be counter-pedantic, these ARE .223 caliber bullets, or rather they are .224 and intended for a .223 diameter bore. The ammo shown is NOT .223 Remington, which is the name of that cartridge. The cartridges are not interchangeable, but the bullets are, and I did say ".223 bullet." So , we are both technically correct. "The best kind of correct."
:beer2:
Oh, good... So, in the same gun I can use 9mm Browning Long, 9mm Luger, 9mm Makarov, 9mm Police, 9x18mm Ultra, 9x19 Parabellum, 9x20mm Browning Long, 9x21mm, 9x23mm Largo, 9x23mm Steyr, 9x23mm Win, 9x25mm Dillon, and 9x25mm Mauser, right..?

After all, they're all 9mm bullets... Thanks, but I think I'll stay with what the gun says it is. And I think I'll have a beer. You want one?

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#22 Post by BillMcD » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:42 pm

AndyH wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 1:42 pm
BillMcD wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:42 am
AndyH wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 am
BillMcD wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 pm

Yeah, not sure why people take ar-15s (in .223) hog hunting. A few people make high claims about pinpoint shots but I don't buy it. I could do a 300 blackout pistol but considering the cost of ammo, I would just be better off waiting on my rifle to come in. If I somehow luck into one, I'll probably modify it to have an adjustable gas block and a side charging upper, along with probably tossing whatever muzzle break they throw on it and replacing it with a flash hider. I really wish that silencer bill wasn't dead in the water. I can safely say the SBR bit is dead for the time being.
Why do people use AR-15s for hogs? Because they have them and because they can? Hogs aren't considered 'game' - they're property in Texas, so most hunting rules don't apply. No worries, though - a suppressed .22LR will work just fine as well.

I don't understand what you are saying about 'claims' of 'pinpoint shots'. I'm not a master with a rifle by any means. My avatar is my most recent 10-shot group at 100 yards from my project AR-10 in .308 with my homemade suppressor. The red square is 5/8" on a side.

PS - a Rifle Caliber Pistol thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43397
I would still rather air on the side of caution and go big rather than take risks with smaller calibers. I'm not so confident in my shooting. Also "property?" I know they're an invasive species but if people are intentionally raising things just to hunt them... that feels a bit counterproductive imo.

Also i've been trying to avoid the general chat because of the news and politics get really depressing. I forget that search functions are a thing sometimes.

Half of this is the wait on getting my rifle is killing me.
The 'property' designation for feral hogs doesn't mean people are breeding them - it just means that people can kill what's on their property without a hunting license, and that regular hunting rules like caliber or magazine sizes don't apply. As for caliber, I agree - that's why I built my .308 for general purpose hunting. But a personal preference doesn't negate the efficacy of much smaller chunks of lead.

I still don't understand what you mean about pinpoint shooting. Maybe you're a pistol shooter first and new to rifles? I'm the opposite. If so, that makes sense. Pistols aren't the most accurate knives in the drawer. ;)
yeah, I haven't had a good bench rifle experience yet.

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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#23 Post by K9s » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:45 pm

BillMcD, did you ever make a decision?
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Re: rifle based pistols: range toys or practical tools?

#24 Post by SailDesign » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:51 am

Range toys.

Final answer.
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