Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/nat ... 12-attack/

Connecticut's Supreme Court has ruled that Remington can be sued over how it marketed the Bushmaster rifle, which was used to kill 20 children and six educators at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, the AP reports.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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I agree. No good will come of this and the anti-human/pro-Koch court decisions it will spur.

I cannot imagine it will survive in a far-right circuit court or SCOTUS. Or, the amount will be whittled down to court costs in the end.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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I found one key phrase in the plaintiffs' assertion by their lawyer:
The families’ goal has always been to shed light on Remington’s calculated and profit-driven strategy to expand the AR-15 market and court high-risk users, all at the expense of Americans’ safety
I realize that "high-risk users" is not, AFAIK, a well-defined legal term, but if they (the plaintiffs) can establish both a workable legal definition, and show that Remington seriously tried to knowingly sell the Bushmaster to those "high-risk users", then they may WELL have a case for criminal negligence, or whatever the term is. In any case, I think the plaintiffs are going to have to show that Remington KNEW that it was urging the sale of its firearms to buyers seeking to use them to commit crimes, which may be a VERY tall order.

One can easily extrapolate a ridiculous ad campaign that would easily fit the description of an open and shut case:

"Thinking of robbing your local bank or liquor store? Afraid they may have armed guards you have to take out? Well you won't have to worry with our new BrushMaestro, capable of firing 100 rounds of high-penetration case-hardened ammo rapidly, able to piercing ANY Kevlar vest!"

Somewhere between legal marketing and such an obvious obscene ad rendering the seller culpable, there may WELL be a line beyond which Remington went, that renders them liable.

I do not know, but I'd guess it depends on what "courting high-risk users" means and if Remington did so. Did Adam Lanza's mother buy the Bushmaster because of her son's response to Remington's advertising, and was someone like Lanza their target?

Again, I don't know, but with lots of folks gut reaction to their suit I figured I'd see if I saw any potential in it, and that's what I found.

Reactions?
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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Notice that car ads show VERY unsafe maneuvers with fine print. Alcoholic beverage ads mention "please drink responsibly". Maybe, like cigarettes, they will be required to mention something in ads? The boxes are already full of "safety first" information.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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Probably want to do a really good background check on anybody who rents a truck, and their kids-in case the kid takes the truck after killing the parent and goes on a rampage.
IMHO, the kid killing his mother create a real disconnect in liability tween the deaths and Remington. I can see this in front of SCOTUS. But then, I tend to blame the human element in a killing.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:16 pm I found one key phrase in the plaintiffs' assertion by their lawyer:
The families’ goal has always been to shed light on Remington’s calculated and profit-driven strategy to expand the AR-15 market and court high-risk users, all at the expense of Americans’ safety
I realize that "high-risk users" is not, AFAIK, a well-defined legal term, but if they (the plaintiffs) can establish both a workable legal definition, and show that Remington seriously tried to knowingly sell the Bushmaster to those "high-risk users", then they may WELL have a case for criminal negligence, or whatever the term is. In any case, I think the plaintiffs are going to have to show that Remington KNEW that it was urging the sale of its firearms to buyers seeking to use them to commit crimes, which may be a VERY tall order.
It seems hgh risk user is essentially defined by the NICS as having a criminal record or mental health issue. This was also essentially confirmed by SCOTUS in Heller as a long standing prohibition. New firearms marketed by Remington can't be sold to those high risk users based on NCIS so it would be a pretty shitty marketing campaign. Without relying on NCIS, we're into thought crime definitions of high risk user, a bad place to be.

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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featureless wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:33 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:16 pm I found one key phrase in the plaintiffs' assertion by their lawyer:
The families’ goal has always been to shed light on Remington’s calculated and profit-driven strategy to expand the AR-15 market and court high-risk users, all at the expense of Americans’ safety
I realize that "high-risk users" is not, AFAIK, a well-defined legal term, but if they (the plaintiffs) can establish both a workable legal definition, and show that Remington seriously tried to knowingly sell the Bushmaster to those "high-risk users", then they may WELL have a case for criminal negligence, or whatever the term is. In any case, I think the plaintiffs are going to have to show that Remington KNEW that it was urging the sale of its firearms to buyers seeking to use them to commit crimes, which may be a VERY tall order.
It seems hgh risk user is essentially defined by the NICS as having a criminal record or mental health issue. This was also essentially confirmed by SCOTUS in Heller as a long standing prohibition. New firearms marketed by Remington can't be sold to those high risk users based on NCIS so it would be a pretty shitty marketing campaign. Without relying on NCIS, we're into thought crime definitions of high risk user, a bad place to be.
I don't disagree. Heller was decided BEFORE NewTown so that may figure in to the suit. And we know NICS fails to catch a "high-risk user", Deven Kelley, in Sutherland Springs, Texas. But marketing can be very subtle as the Joe Camel campaign to entice teens to smoke was.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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featureless wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:52 pm NICS does fail, but I bet Remington wasn't basing their sales forecast and profit margins on the few cases where it does. :)
Nope, but now we're into speculation about Remington's advertising and marketing plans. They may WELL seek bankruptcy protection from the courts.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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I'll admit to having a serious curiosity about Remington's marketing plans. Not that I believe they're intentionally nefarious or anything to that effect, but what exactly do they talk about when marketing a firearm? Especially the AR platform. Don't get me wrong, I own one and I've wanted one ever since they put the Bushmaster on the market, it just took some time for the price to drop and the competition for sellers on the platform to go up before I could afford one. However, the new Sig ad campaign for the TREAD AR platform, right down to the name, is so outright ridiculous and obviously marketed to what I would call the " small town pride tea party trumper" demographic that I laugh/cry every time I see it. It's so, predictable? I also recall an ad I saw for Spikes that turned me off to them forever, some idiotic anti-antifa bullshit propaganda piece. I don't care how you feel about antifa, using them to sell guns to shoot protestors is just an asshole move.

https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firea ... les/tread/


https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1450/ ... 1516313097
"we are taught to fly in the air like birds, and to swim in the water like the fishes; but how to live on the earth we don’t know.” unknown member of the Russian proletariat

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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Hilarious last line of this article about the Spikes ad,
"It's always safe to assume that your message was lost if you have to proclaim in a statement that you don't support Nazis."

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/arc ... ertisement
"we are taught to fly in the air like birds, and to swim in the water like the fishes; but how to live on the earth we don’t know.” unknown member of the Russian proletariat

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:23 pm I believe DPMS is selling (or was) a lower with "Jail for Hillary" on it. For me that puts them and Spikes on the "never buy from, ever" list.
absolutely right
"we are taught to fly in the air like birds, and to swim in the water like the fishes; but how to live on the earth we don’t know.” unknown member of the Russian proletariat

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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bornin69 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:40 pm Hilarious last line of this article about the Spikes ad,
"It's always safe to assume that your message was lost if you have to proclaim in a statement that you don't support Nazis."

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/arc ... ertisement
Thanks for that link. Glad to hear we weren't the only ones upset. I forgot how ugly that ad was.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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K9s wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:53 pm
bornin69 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:40 pm Hilarious last line of this article about the Spikes ad,
"It's always safe to assume that your message was lost if you have to proclaim in a statement that you don't support Nazis."

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/arc ... ertisement
Thanks for that link. Glad to hear we weren't the only ones upset. I forgot how ugly that ad was.
I had, too. I just knew there was a reason I would NEVER give Spikes anything of value.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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How Sandy Hook Families Hope to Pierce the Gun Industry’s Legal Shield
Now, families of the victims from the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School hope to replicate the tactic: using litigation as a means to pry open the gun industry, employing the discovery process to unearth internal communications and examine the practices behind marketing and selling powerful firearms like the one used in the attack.

“We can find out what the Remington defendants have tried every step of the way to block in discovery,” said David Wheeler, whose 6-year-old son, Ben, died at Sandy Hook, about the gun maker that was among the companies named in the lawsuit.

Joshua D. Koskoff, a lawyer for the families, described the discovery stage as “really the most important thing we’ve been waiting to do.”

Re: Court rules families of Sandy Hook shooting victims can sue gunmaker Remington over 2012 attack

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:09 pm
K9s wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:13 pm I am just curious... can we sue car manufacturers for drunk driving deaths?
No, but you can sue the bar and bartender that served the drunk.
This is the origin of "don't sell guns to drunk or high people" laws. Once the guns leave the store, though, I believe liability lands in the lap of the owner.

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