Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

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Sable
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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#26 Post by Sable » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:17 pm

Marlene wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:11 pm
Sable wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:24 pm
1 moa with a standard AR at 50 yards is quite common even among novice shooters. With some good practice no reason to not consistently get sub moa.
I have literally never seen anyone at a shooting range shoot less than an inch at any distance without magnification from an AR.
Are we talking about 16" carbines or the standard 20" barrels? Are we talking match grade ammo or just regular plinking stuff? Don't see the point in trying to determine MOA on generic 55 grain stuff. .223/5.56 was originally designed for 20 inch barrels re: AR's. Maybe I mis-used the word standard that caused confusion. Didn't mean commercial DPMS stuff.

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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#27 Post by Marlene » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:54 pm

I’m talking about any AR and shooter I have seen on the line at any range I’ve been at. I just don’t see people shooting them that well. I know that folks working hard certainly can. I know lots of the guns can. I’ve seen plenty of accurate ARs with big scopes on, but those are the only that I see in person shooting 1moa or smaller.
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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#28 Post by Sable » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:14 pm

Marlene wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:54 pm
I’m talking about any AR and shooter I have seen on the line at any range I’ve been at. I just don’t see people shooting them that well. I know that folks working hard certainly can. I know lots of the guns can. I’ve seen plenty of accurate ARs with big scopes on, but those are the only that I see in person shooting 1moa or smaller.
Well, for me personally AR carbines are not standard AR's. I think the distinction needs to be made evident. I was in the military during the time where the transition was made from the M16 to the M4. I have read several articles on the topic and there are mixed reviews on the impact of cutting off about 5 inches. Some say it is insignificant. Some say it matters. For me, it definitely mattered. I saw a much greater learning curb in shooting for accuracy with M4's. I was already in for 2 1/2 years maybe when the transition took place. Therefore, in basic training I was fortunate enough to qualify with my M16. Many of the guys around me were shooting sharpshooter or greater with relative ease. If you were shooting only markmanship than you were considered subpar. There was no good reason with all the practice that was offered and training that someone could not reach sharpshooter (with the M16) was the thinking I observed. Now when the M4's came out the tone completely changed at least in my unit. I can't speak about other units, but me personally I fell to shooting marksmanship as did many others. As the new guys fresh out of AIT got to our unit, who would have qualified with M4's in basic, were also barely scoring marksmanship. Not saying there were no exceptional shooters that exceeded that standard whether with an M4 or M16, but in general you had more guys scoring marksmanship and fewer reaching sharpshooter with the M4 v the M16.

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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#29 Post by K9s » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:32 pm

It's hard to compare that with typical shooters at a given gun range. Most are older, not young recruits, and most don't shoot very often.

Personally, I don't shoot any better or worse with my 18" vs 16" vs my 14.6" barrel. I always shoot better with magnification, though.
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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#30 Post by featureless » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:16 am

K9s wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:32 pm
I always shoot better with magnification, though.
You can say that again.

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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#31 Post by Sable » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:19 am

K9s wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:32 pm
It's hard to compare that with typical shooters at a given gun range. Most are older, not young recruits, and most don't shoot very often.

Personally, I don't shoot any better or worse with my 18" vs 16" vs my 14.6" barrel. I always shoot better with magnification, though.
Fair point, but ammo choice along with a host of other things can make a huge difference. 1 inch groups at 50 yards is not that unachievable especially considering that most AR's are marketed as 2-4 MOA guns. Plus, actually to make a correction, I didn't consider having to split the 1 inch at 50 yards to .5 making a 1 inch group at 50 yards actually 2 MOA. FEnix ammo claims their competition 5.56 is tested to be sub MOA at 400 yards. Now that is something..

https://fenixammo.com/collections/compe ... -75gr-hpbt

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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#32 Post by K9s » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:26 pm

To be honest, the low low price of ARs has made me consider an AR pistol. The Draco has been around $500 for years. AR pistols are cheaper than that these days.

I always wondered why the AR pistol was popular. The ballistics of 5.56 with a 10" barrel might be OK in something with a smaller total length (like the Yugo 5.56 pistol), but it seems impractical without a stock. Too large to holster, too bulky in a hallway, and too unwieldy for longer range. I could be wrong, though.
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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#33 Post by tomservonaut » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:37 am

you can still buy a 45-70 derringer. i am guessing for bears and removing cartilage from various areas of the wrist.

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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#34 Post by K9s » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:19 pm

tomservonaut wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:37 am
you can still buy a 45-70 derringer. i am guessing for bears and removing cartilage from various areas of the wrist.
Sounds very practical and pleasant to shoot.
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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#35 Post by DamnYankee » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:51 pm

I have a few AKs pistols and a couple in AR format. Of all of them, only one of the AKs has been left in original form, and that one will get a brace at some point if I don’t sell it first, or braces don’t evaporate with a Presidential Executive order. I was a sucker (capital S) for short barrels at one point. But not being the “mag dump” kind, I find shooting them in unstocked or unbraced form mostly pointless. I need 3 points of contact to even begin to think about accuracy The shorter barrels also need a compensator or similar type brake or suppressor at a minimum to direct the sound down range, unless you enjoy annoying every other shooter at the range. I know that’s been a topic here before...

But when legally SBR’d or a brace added, they are a lot of fun...

I’ve thought about selling one of the Yugos and maybe the PLR and building a nice 10.5 inch 5.56 upper for one of my existing braced lowers to shoot suppressed. I also want to build a good 20 inch upper to practice with and maybe try to be an exception to Marlene’s very accurate observation about AR shooters.

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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#36 Post by JohnNewell » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:38 pm

featureless wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:16 am
K9s wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:32 pm
I always shoot better with magnification, though.
You can say that again.
I am seeing more and more older folks - like myself - that would agree. Personally, I've pretty well decided that optics are a very personal choice.

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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#37 Post by JohnNewell » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:47 pm

K9s wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:26 pm
To be honest, the low low price of ARs has made me consider an AR pistol. The Draco has been around $500 for years. AR pistols are cheaper than that these days.

I always wondered why the AR pistol was popular. The ballistics of 5.56 with a 10" barrel might be OK in something with a smaller total length (like the Yugo 5.56 pistol), but it seems impractical without a stock. Too large to holster, too bulky in a hallway, and too unwieldy for longer range. I could be wrong, though.

Back in the days (80's) when I worked for a defense contractor a couple of us were given H&K MP5SD factory silenced ("suppressed") submachine guns. Lovely weapon. I always wondered why anyone would consider the Colt 9mm product when you could buy an MP5.

Fast forward almost 4 decades and some things make sense. Cost. Buying American. Etc.

But I think there is something to be said for the current AR9 variants. Range is limited but they can be lightweight. I have an associate who is buying one for us to experiment with. My thoughts are that they may be a low cost and light weight option to carry at demonstrations or other situations when .223 might actual be overpowering.

Also, don't overlook the reality that some inexperienced shooters are frightened by .223. So a 9mm "pistol" or SBR makes some sense.

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Re: Rifle caliber pistols...The new rave? Fad? or here to stay

#38 Post by K9s » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:37 am

A suppressed SBR seems like fun, but I always worried that all the money and time would be wasted in one election year ban.
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