Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

1
The answer is just really simple; value proposition. Civilians aren't going to war, and the AR is sufficiently reliable for anything anyone could reasonably ask a rifle to do. It is accurate, and extremely versatile when it comes to customization. It really does it all... And it does it on the cheap! There's your value proposition.

The H&K 416, Beretta ARX, TAVOR, BREN, Radom, etc. These rifles are all incrementally better in most categories over the AR, but in US civilian sales the AR just trounces them. Because the AR gets the job done for a much lower price.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

2
The price has a lot to do with it, absolutely. An HK MR556 (you can’t buy a real HK416) is 6x+ what an entry level AR costs, and while it does have a some benefits to it...you aren’t gonna convince most people the juice is worth the squeeze (heck, I’m a huge HK snob, and I’m not sure it's worth it...).

That being said, I’ll take my AUG over any of my AR's, any day. It's as compact as a 10” SBR with the stock collapsed, but doesn’t need a tax stamp, and doesn’t forfeit any ballistic advantage for a short barrel.

Definitely some benefits to looking beyond the cookie-cutter rifles.

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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I don't look at my rifles as weapons, they're range toys, sport guns, target rifles (whatever term you like). So I don't view any of my guns in that way...I'm not going to war with anyone. Yeah in some strange universe, one may be called upon to defend myself or my family, but that's not why I buy them. My military arms are out of an interest in historical small arms.

But SO MANY buyers of military style arms do see them as weapons for serious use (not sure who's "seriously" using all these civilian rifles). The AR is hard to beat due to price, but also parts availability and interchangeability.

I don't go in for "best" since that's such a subjective term. Everyone has certain boxes they want checked.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

4
Before the pandemic an AR can be had for less than a Glock. I remember seeing a S&W Sport advertised locally for less than $500. It may not survive 10,000 rounds, but very few civilians shoot that much through their AR.

I suspect that the vast majority of folks have an AR as an insurance policy. Something to have just in case and hope to not use.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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Since Assault Rifles (by the REAL definition are select fire) cannot be sold to the public, and it makes no sense to equip soldiers with less than assault rifles, that should be all there is to it.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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They give you a lot a capability for a little bit of money. And the same basic lower can be almost infinitely upgraded/improved.

You can hunt varmints, hogs, deer, target shoot, plink, compete in a variety of disciplines. And yes, cosplay with your proud boi & 3% internet buddies at various state Capitols.

You can buy match grade ammo or inexpensive steel case. Or load your own for next to nothing.

What I like about them is that a basic stripped lower with $40 worth of tools can be built into what ever type rifle you want (or pistol in some cases.) inexpensive carbine, long range match rifle, .350 legend deer rifle, etc, etc ... there is a whole industry for every possible AR-15 variable & accessory.

Now that being said, I also prefer a lever gun or Western replicas.


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Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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I dig my AR (Springfield Saint Victor) because it's fun to shoot and it's incredibly accurate- and where I'm from it pulls double duty as both a ground squirrel gun and a hog gun. But when it really comes down to it, I feel like the AR is kinda... too slick. If we're talking "Assault Style Rifles" the AK is way cooler with it's heavy lines and wood furniture.
-Crow
Minute Of Average

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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Crow wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:40 pm I dig my AR (Springfield Saint Victor) because it's fun to shoot and it's incredibly accurate- and where I'm from it pulls double duty as both a ground squirrel gun and a hog gun. But when it really comes down to it, I feel like the AR is kinda... too slick. If we're talking "Assault Style Rifles" the AK is way cooler with it's heavy lines and wood furniture.
-Crow
Have you seen an AR with wood furniture? Here's my AR-10:
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20190727_Windham.jpg
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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wings wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:02 pm Wait, I thought the M4 was a modern military carbine?
it is the current issue weapon, but it's essentially a 60+ year-old design, based on late ww2 german innovation, so arguably 75 years old. weapons development comes in fits and starts, especially so with firearms. since industrialization in the latter half of the 1800s made smokeless metallic-cartridge breech-loading magazine fed repeaters possible and practical, we've experienced a century and a half of rapid advances, much of it driven by the needs of war, with corresponding changes to the theory and practice of warfare, but we may be near the end of that chain. what's next, improved sighting systems, target acquisition, caseless ammo to simplify the firing/loading process? energy weapons to dispense with the ammo question as we've known it completely? we're waiting on the next development, maybe a new paradigm altogether? meanwhile humanity via culture is struggling to catch up and understand the consequences of what we've already done, .
never submit! (click "submit" button now.)

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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"Modern military rifles" are restricted under the the NFA of 1934 and the Hughes Amendment to FOPA because they are machine guns.

Regarding semi-automatic carbines that look like military rifles, ROI is the biggest factor, but buyers are comfortable with the AR's 60-year-old tech, which is mature enough for comfort but not yet viewed as antiquated.

When I set out to acquire an upper-tier AR, an MR556A1 purchase was hard to justify given it lacked some of the features of the MR223A3 or 416A5, contained too many proprietary parts, and was unnecessarily heavy.

That's why I was more partial to LMT, from which I could source a fully-ambidextrous lower with good ergonomics and an upper that has fewer parts, less weight, supports quick-change barrels, interchangeability between DI and piston configurations, and maintains sight alignment by virtue of being monolithic. Regardless, a lot of money would be spent, but the goal is to buy something better than the average AR while it is still legal to transfer them.

Following that, selling off lower- and middle-tier ARs in favor of scoring a Tavor X95 or 7 later, if possible, seems prudent.
Last edited by DispositionMatrix on Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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Ylatkit wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:36 am
wings wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:02 pm Wait, I thought the M4 was a modern military carbine?
It is.
We're not actually talking about Modern Military Weapons... my X95 and SCAR 17S are not what the IDF or Spec Ops are using.
Real MMWs involve a lengthy and invasive waltz with the ATF.
I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT'S BEHIND IT

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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And we have a winner. The M4 is an AR platform in modern military use, but that does not make every civilian AR a "modern military weapon."
lurker wrote: it is the current issue weapon, but it's essentially a 60+ year-old design, based on late ww2 german innovation, so arguably 75 years old. weapons development comes in fits and starts, especially so with firearms. since industrialization in the latter half of the 1800s made smokeless metallic-cartridge breech-loading magazine fed repeaters possible and practical, we've experienced a century and a half of rapid advances, much of it driven by the needs of war, with corresponding changes to the theory and practice of warfare, but we may be near the end of that chain. what's next, improved sighting systems, target acquisition, caseless ammo to simplify the firing/loading process? energy weapons to dispense with the ammo question as we've known it completely? we're waiting on the next development, maybe a new paradigm altogether? meanwhile humanity via culture is struggling to catch up and understand the consequences of what we've already done, .
Mm, proven technology. You almost make it sound appealing. :lol: The only thing that holds me back from a Garand is the recognition that I enjoy handguns more.

What's next is probably drones. I feel like further advances in infantry small arms are like the Patton saber - futile. Energy storage is a problem for high-power lasers. Pity, because they are fun and I am a huge fan. But even a black-powder flintlock has practical advantages in energy transfer and wound mechanics.

Drones make me think about learning to shoot shotguns.

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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BMW has made Boxer Twin motorcycles for 80 or 90 years. But even though the Boxer Twins are still made, they are NOTHING like like the pre-WWII or even 1970's models.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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lurker wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:58 am they're all , semi and full, powder-fueled reciprocating engines. we may move the recoil springs and gas cylinders around or use different materials to save some weight, but they all do the same thing; feed, fire, extract, eject. - lather rinse repeat.
Yes and those principles go back over a hundred years. Tweak here and there is all.
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Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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FrontSight wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:00 pm I don't look at my rifles as weapons, they're range toys, sport guns, target rifles (whatever term you like). So I don't view any of my guns in that way...I'm not going to war with anyone. Yeah in some strange universe, one may be called upon to defend myself or my family, but that's not why I buy them. My military arms are out of an interest in historical small arms.

But SO MANY buyers of military style arms do see them as weapons for serious use (not sure who's "seriously" using all these civilian rifles). The AR is hard to beat due to price, but also parts availability and interchangeability.

I don't go in for "best" since that's such a subjective term. Everyone has certain boxes they want checked.
Isn't hard to find posts and places of conspiracy yaa-hoos who believe the black helicopters and 'guv-ment' agents are gonna require him to take up arms against that nasty Biden and the 'tyranny' of the US Gov't..2A weirdos. Even more so after the attempted coup and insurrection at the capital 1/6..these knuckledraggers are still around, are still trumpistas and still dangerous.

Re: Why modern military rifles aren't replacing the AR in civilian sales

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The AR has the look of the iconic American Army rifle for most of the yahoos out there wanting to still play army. When I looked for a rifle in 5.56 I looked fr a dependable weapon that would be usable in most states. I didn't need a combat knockoff because I had one already that was more genuine than most of the AR rifles. The Yugo Underfolder in 7.62X39. For the 5.56 NATO round I chose the Ruger Ranch Mini-14 It is allowed in most states without a hassle depending on the magazine I would carry with it. When Wife and I go visit our friends on their ranch in west Texas I usually carry a revolver and a lever rifle in the same caliber, ether 357 or 44 magnum. Save having to have two different calibers and magazines to haul around.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
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