Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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Relax. China will keep the peace. [/s]

I do agree that the cost of us being there has since 02 outweighed any advantage we might have had. Time to come home and leave it to China.

CDFingers
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Sometimes when the cuckoo's cryin;, when the moon is half way down,
sometimes when the night is dyin' I take me out and I wonder around--I wander 'round.

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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The British and the Russians were there before us and they didn't triumph. Pakistan and Sunni Islam will continue to dominate Afghanistan. They aren't Arabs but I expect Saudi Arabia will also have some involvement though Pakistan will be the dominate power. They border Shia Iran but I don't expect that country will have any influence. China might try pulling them in with Belt and Road funded projects.

Biden delayed the pullout until his team was aboard and there was agreement. It's time to leave.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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lurker wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:43 am maybe we should try this "belt and road" thing?
Read a report of Biden's first phone call with BoJo and he mentioned that exact thing. We have the resources and the UK has the connections with their Commonwealth of Nations, 54 former members of the British Empire.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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highdesert wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:35 am The British and the Russians were there before us and they didn't triumph. Pakistan and Sunni Islam will continue to dominate Afghanistan. They aren't Arabs but I expect Saudi Arabia will also have some involvement though Pakistan will be the dominate power. They border Shia Iran but I don't expect that country will have any influence. China might try pulling them in with Belt and Road funded projects.

Biden delayed the pullout until his team was aboard and there was agreement. It's time to leave.
Alexander the Great was there before us and it has been quoted that Afghanistan - Where empire go to die.
Last edited by TrueTexan on Mon May 03, 2021 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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The fact is, the war in Afghanistan was lost by March of 2003, because Darth and Rummy convinced Dumbya to starve the forces there of service people and materiel in order to illegally attack Iraq. Early in March--I think it was the 3rd, Jimmy Carter publicly warned that such a venture would lead to disaster in BOTH Iraq and Afghanistan, which, of course, it did. We lost the initiative and once you do that in a war, you have lost.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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It WAS actually winnable, and we were close to it when Republicans, doing what Republicans do with EVERYTHING, figuratively cut the forces feet out from under it. They do that with EVERYTHING. They haven't created anything positive since Nixon established Earth Day.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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There's no such thing as a risk free decision on this one. Yeah, the Taliban may take over. Yeah, they may become a haven for terrorists again. Yeah, we may have to go back someday. But that's someday, and "may"... We're at today. Nation building has quite predictably failed; be done with it.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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TrueTexan wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:10 pm
highdesert wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:35 am The British and the Russians were there before us and they didn't triumph. Pakistan and Sunni Islam will continue to dominate Afghanistan. They aren't Arabs but I expect Saudi Arabia will also have some involvement though Pakistan will be the dominate power. They border Shia Iran but I don't expect that country will have any influence. China might try pulling them in with Belt and Road funded projects.

Biden delayed the pullout until his team was aboard and there was agreement. It's time to leave.
Alexander the Great was there before us and it has been quoted that Afghanistan - Where empire go to die.

I can believe it. It's crippled by religion and tribal culture and a literacy rate of only 43% which is on par with some African countries.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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FrontSight wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:44 am https://www.yahoo.com/news/hillary-clin ... 07570.html

I get Hillary and Condi's concerns, but the fact remains. 20 years of fighting...If Afghanistan can't form a stable government by now, they never will. We gave them 20 years, we don't owe them anything. Time to leave.
The idea was to ensure Afghanistan couldn't breed another group that could mount another 9/11 type attack. I think the US has done that and we can always go back for 'surgical' missions. We should be out of the nation building biz..started under Bush 2.

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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Religion can be a useful tool for a government as long as those at the decision making level don't believe the narrative. Written law, a gift of the Romans, can check those in power if well constructed. The U.S. Constitution is one such example. Mix superstition and magic with police power and we get self fulfilling prophesy. Hell on Earth.

Go back? When global travel required walking and wind power, it was possible to “get away from it all”. Today, we all share the same backyard.

One day, should we invent warp drive we can find a whole new planet to fuck-up.
Looks like I picked the wrong year to quit drinking.

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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I'm no fan of peeking in windows or listening on the other side of a closed door. Nuclear aspirations by anyone affect everyone, like it or not. Power, unrestrained by reason, requires outside supervision, along with convincing countervailing force. That is what the Open Skies Treaty was all about.

Human Rights is everyone's business. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good governments to do nothing. Freedom comes with a price.

I'm glad we are going to stop sending our young men and women into that hell hole. At the close of WW2, Patton admonished that the lives lost "must not have been in vain".

Then he got hit by a truck.
Looks like I picked the wrong year to quit drinking.

Re: Sorry Hillary, but we need to go

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Actually, lives are not lost in vain, but rather lived in vain. What is worth fighting for? Against?

When gods were many, you and I were free to pick and choose from a staggering array. I had my favorite players and you could root for your choices as well. All was calm (enough).

When gods became singular, you became a blasphemer. My magic book commands me to rid the world of your kind. And yours of mine.

Religion gives each of us an unchallengeable excuse to behave badly. Daddy said I could.

Many stories in books and movies are set in societies where both ancient and modern, even futuristic technologies co-exist. On the surface it seems impossibly strange, but we've always lived in that world.

Carl Sagan once noted that we are acquiring so much power as to become a danger to ourselves and to the Earth. We need that power to fix both what we've fucked-up and what the universe has and will throw at us. Our track record does not inspire.

The separation of Church and State is the separation of ignorance from power.
No phasers for depression era flop house drunks.
No congressional seats for minds deranged by eternity.
Looks like I picked the wrong year to quit drinking.

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