Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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Humans are very good at managing the populations of every species but our own. (Rats and mosquitos may be exceptions). Perhaps the same strategy could be applied to alleviate starving in other venues.
I'm not against hunting or wildlife management, but Earth wasn't made for us.
What do the lions naturally eat? Did we manage their food supply to death?
I have something of a soft spot in my heart, some say head, for cats. It is difficult for me to sympathize with the notion of shoot, rather than feed the hungry, regardless of the species.
We don't need Nikita Khrushchev's help. We'll bury ourselves, thank you.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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papajim2jordan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:13 am Humans are very good at managing the populations of every species but our own. (Rats and mosquitos may be exceptions). Perhaps the same strategy could be applied to alleviate starving in other venues.
I'm not against hunting or wildlife management, but Earth wasn't made for us.
What do the lions naturally eat? Did we manage their food supply to death?
I have something of a soft spot in my heart, some say head, for cats. It is difficult for me to sympathize with the notion of shoot, rather than feed the hungry, regardless of the species.
I didn’t want to respond to this either. I agree with you. I’m not anti hunting, but I would prefer a solution that helps restore the natural food supply and healthy ecosystem for all animals. That possibly means our footprint needs to be reduced or responsibly living among other animals. Balance is needed. This is a planet that belongs to all that live here. We are the only ones that can restore or destroy it. If any creature is an apex predator, we are. Husbanding resources is more than just culling.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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Managed conservation isn't about just culling - it's about trying to balance where we don't have 100% control. Hunting is just one aspect of that - there's land management, species protection and the like.

From what I understand from some conservation groups, this bill is a nibble in an ongoing push/pull against hunting in Colorado. Conservation has been constantly under that same push/pull as other social services in the states, and this is just another step in that constant back and forth.

I don't like the ban, as it's a sledgehammer and doesn't address basic issues like loss of habitat which affects species that those creatures would prey on to thrive/survive.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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chgowiz wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:37 am I don't like the ban, as it's a sledgehammer and doesn't address basic issues like loss of habitat which affects species that those creatures would prey on to thrive/survive.
This is the biggest issue with it. It entirely bypasses the Department of Wildlife. Recall this is the same state that passed (by popular ballot, not legislature) a requirement in the state to introduce more wolves without any budget allocation.

Of course there is more to the equation than just culling predators. But that's up to the biologist to figure out. Not legislators under pressure from urbanites who think we live in a frickin' Disney movie. Letting the predators run unchecked means letting them decimate deer fawns and elk calves, which further exacerbates the predator starvation problem. For people of the "let nature take its course" because the idea of a rifle is too unpalatable, here's what that looks like.
nature1.png
tonguengroover wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:07 pm Deer an elk are their main diet.
Not sure how CO manages the deer population but that could be a factor.
Hunting of any sort is managed very closely. The state is divided into Game Management Units. Each unit has different tags available. Places where a species is overpopulated may have unlimited over the counter tags available. Places where the population is too low will have tags only available by limited draw or the unit may be entirely closed to hunting that species. Harvest statistics are tracked to determine success ratios for how many tags are issued. Even when hunters are not successful, being out there as another predator encourages the populations to redistribute to other units with less hunting pressure, and that is factored into the number of tags issued.

Taking away that tool for game management means that instead of revenue generated for the Department of Wildlife from hunters paying for licenses (not to mention tourist revenue from out of state hunters), the state then needs to pay professional hunters and wildlife officers to manage the predators.

Yeah, we as humans have run unchecked like rats, but that means we have even more of an obligation to not worsen things by throwing wildlife into a cycle of starvation and disease.
papajim2jordan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:13 am I have something of a soft spot in my heart, some say head, for cats. It is difficult for me to sympathize with the notion of shoot, rather than feed the hungry, regardless of the species.
You can feed the lions your housecat or toddler if you'd like. That is literally what it comes down to.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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I agree, it's a complicated issue. Native rights, hunter rights and then there is conservation of our resources including animals. If one looks solely at nature for example, the US Forest Service policy of letting wild fires burn to clear old growth was right, but there are all those pesky wealthy people who built homes and cabins in high fire areas who exercise their political power to stop it. And the Biden administration stopped it.

I'm not a hunter but a gun owner.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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highdesert wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:28 pm If one looks solely at nature for example, the US Forest Service policy of letting wild fires burn to clear old growth was right, but there are all those pesky wealthy people who built homes and cabins in high fire areas who exercise their political power to stop it.
Yep, and those same wealthy people don't like the idea of hunters within 100 miles of them. So they want hunting restricted around them. Until they wreck a car hitting an elk. Or a lion eats their dog. Then they demand the state does something about it.

There was a guy here way back when, BlackEagle maybe, who told the story of wealthy folks in CO who hired him to come take a problem cat out. Turns out they used to throw meat off their back porch to bait him down because they found it amusing. Then they got bored with it and wanted it gone. He didn't take the job.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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58Hawken wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:10 pm
chgowiz wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:37 am I don't like the ban, as it's a sledgehammer and doesn't address basic issues like loss of habitat which affects species that those creatures would prey on to thrive/survive.
This is the biggest issue with it. It entirely bypasses the Department of Wildlife. Recall this is the same state that passed (by popular ballot, not legislature) a requirement in the state to introduce more wolves without any budget allocation.

Of course there is more to the equation than just culling predators. But that's up to the biologist to figure out. Not legislators under pressure from urbanites who think we live in a frickin' Disney movie. Letting the predators run unchecked means letting them decimate deer fawns and elk calves, which further exacerbates the predator starvation problem. For people of the "let nature take its course" because the idea of a rifle is too unpalatable, here's what that looks like.

nature1.png

tonguengroover wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:07 pm Deer an elk are their main diet.
Not sure how CO manages the deer population but that could be a factor.
Hunting of any sort is managed very closely. The state is divided into Game Management Units. Each unit has different tags available. Places where a species is overpopulated may have unlimited over the counter tags available. Places where the population is too low will have tags only available by limited draw or the unit may be entirely closed to hunting that species. Harvest statistics are tracked to determine success ratios for how many tags are issued. Even when hunters are not successful, being out there as another predator encourages the populations to redistribute to other units with less hunting pressure, and that is factored into the number of tags issued.

Taking away that tool for game management means that instead of revenue generated for the Department of Wildlife from hunters paying for licenses (not to mention tourist revenue from out of state hunters), the state then needs to pay professional hunters and wildlife officers to manage the predators.

Yeah, we as humans have run unchecked like rats, but that means we have even more of an obligation to not worsen things by throwing wildlife into a cycle of starvation and disease.
papajim2jordan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:13 am I have something of a soft spot in my heart, some say head, for cats. It is difficult for me to sympathize with the notion of shoot, rather than feed the hungry, regardless of the species.
You can feed the lions your housecat or toddler if you'd like. That is literally what it comes down to.
Feed my kids to the lions? How nice. Your parents must be proud.
We don't need Nikita Khrushchev's help. We'll bury ourselves, thank you.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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Colorado seems like it’s all over the map. On one side you have the morons who elected that half-wit, Lauren Boebert, and the other side these “save the kitties” people. I’m sure there are plenty of rational folks in the middle that understand hunting is just one tool (and an important one) in the tool kit of wild life management. There are many others. A Colorado elk hunt is many a hunter’s dream. I personally, wouldn’t go hunting mountain lions, but I understand the need to do so.


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Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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The ban, as I understand it, not yet enacted. Begs the question, if managed hunting is as successful as implied, why are there starving animals now? Over population could be due to under participation in hunting. If so, that management tool would seem in need of sharpening. I am not a wildlife biologist, (and didn't play one on TV). I do however, know a few conservation officers, (1 is family) and they say mixed things about hunters in general (digging holes, cutting trees, starting fires, leaving trash). Perhaps we could go all Roman and feed the non hunters (glad I'm not a Christian) to the lions! Two birds, win-win!!

I'm not anti-hunting, relax.

I've shot several coyote in defense of pets (those damn housecats). Along with a number of copperheads to which I have lost count. I get no pleasure from it. Just needed done. I draw the line at child sacrifice.

I just like cats (even the big ones), and will miss them when they're gone, that's all I am trying to say. I doubt the rest of Earth's critters (if any are left) will shed a tear when we leave. Probably throw a party! The machines we make to replace us will do better.
We don't need Nikita Khrushchev's help. We'll bury ourselves, thank you.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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papajim2jordan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:02 pm
I've shot several coyote in defense of pets (those damn housecats). Along with a number of copperheads to which I have lost count. I get no pleasure from it. Just needed done. I draw the line at child sacrifice.
Child/pet sacrifice is apparently a price those who would ban hunting are willing to pay.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ion-attack

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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58Hawken wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:54 am
papajim2jordan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:02 pm
I've shot several coyote in defense of pets (those damn housecats). Along with a number of copperheads to which I have lost count. I get no pleasure from it. Just needed done. I draw the line at child sacrifice.
Child/pet sacrifice is apparently a price those who would ban hunting are willing to pay.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ion-attack
Perhaps there is another language you might be more familiar with so as to understand what I have tried to communicate.

It's NOT about hunting. It's not about guns. Not about any god(damn) right to do whatever. There are an infinite number of pictures available on this web gizmo with humans in the exact same situations as those of the non-human residents of this planet you have put on offer.

Hunt humans? Hell no. They may shoot back. Just kidding. Before continuing, take a breath, count to ten.

Legislation is a social experiment. If these animals are starving already, the current paradigm would seem to need tweaking. Perhaps even at the expense of hearing less from your Hawken.

We seem to have done so well with climate, population control, and living together with the rest of the inhabitants it seems that nothing stands in our way. We can't even keep our fellow travelers in a protected cage without some idiot putting themselves in danger and requiring it's destruction. Google Easter Island. Passenger Pigeon. Land and game management at it's finest.

Perhaps you see this coming. Laying the ground rules for the last available sport kill opportunity once the last of the four legged ones are on your wall.

You have taken a simple thought, transcribed into written words without malice, and turned it on it's ear. There is a word for just that change of position.

P.S. It's really not about you. Take another breath, have a beverage. If somehow you have been offended, that is your right, but not my intent. I offer no apology.
We don't need Nikita Khrushchev's help. We'll bury ourselves, thank you.

Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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58Hawken wrote:
papajim2jordan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:02 pm
I've shot several coyote in defense of pets (those damn housecats). Along with a number of copperheads to which I have lost count. I get no pleasure from it. Just needed done. I draw the line at child sacrifice.
Child/pet sacrifice is apparently a price those who would ban hunting are willing to pay.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ion-attack
That’s pretty much the same straw man argument for Semi-auto rifle bans. “Because of this extremely rare, yet frightening, circumstance we should do X.” Murder by rifle in the US is a pretty small, fractional number of even firearms murders.

I’m willing to bet mountain lion maulings are pretty rare, probably fractional to domestic dog attacks. Yet nobody’s out trying to ban dogs (or hunt them).

Insert “bear gun thread “ here.


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Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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It’s a root cause issue, just like any other including guns. It’s pretty clear that loss of habitat with suitable prey is one of the underlying reasons mountain lions or any other predator attacks non traditional prey. Address the underlying causes of violence and issues will most likely correct themselves and mountain lions will choose deer and other creatures over domestic animals two legged or four. Yes, I bet these cases are rare as well.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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sikacz wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:18 am It’s pretty clear that loss of habitat with suitable prey is one of the underlying reasons mountain lions or any other predator attacks non traditional prey.
Exactly right! Last June I posted about the young girl in LA County who saved the family dogs from a mother bear. Bears and mountain lions come down from the Angeles National Forest into urbanized areas. Housing developments keep spreading into natural hunting grounds for animals and domestic pets are easy prey for them.
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/01/10021974 ... amily-pets
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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highdesert wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:36 am
sikacz wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:18 am It’s pretty clear that loss of habitat with suitable prey is one of the underlying reasons mountain lions or any other predator attacks non traditional prey.
Exactly right! Last June I posted about the young girl in LA County who saved the family dogs from a mother bear. Bears and mountain lions come down from the Angeles National Forest into urbanized areas. Housing developments keep spreading into natural hunting grounds for animals and domestic pets are easy prey for them.
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/01/10021974 ... amily-pets
58Hawken wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:04 pm CO SB 22-031, bill to ban hunting of mountain lion, bobcat, or lynx as a means of population management. The latter of which is already outlawed. More social pressure instead of science for conservation decisions. The same week as a starving mountain lion goes into a Vail condo complex.
I wouldn't say either of those can be construed into over population problems.

You have to consider what? You have to consider the drought thats been wreaking havoc on the foraging for all the critters.

Second, lions and other animals do die of starvation due to the fact they just don't hunt very well. It's a fact that many predators die because they are just not good enough hunters and didn't watch the mamma. Or, the mom got shot before they could learn their skill at hunting.

Just because predators go to where food or water is does not mean it's due to over population. It's been happening forever.

Here is a drought chart:
This map shows how the average air temperature from 2000 to 2020 has differed from the long-term average (1895–2020). To provide more detailed information, each state has been divided into climate divisions, which are zones that share similar climate features.

Data source: NOAA, 20212
Web update: April 2021
Download Data Download Image View Interactive Map EXITEXIT EPA WEBSITEClimate Indicators Explorer
What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
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Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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INVICTVS138 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:07 am
58Hawken wrote:
Child/pet sacrifice is apparently a price those who would ban hunting are willing to pay.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ion-attack
That’s pretty much the same straw man argument for Semi-auto rifle bans. “Because of this extremely rare, yet frightening, circumstance we should do X.” Murder by rifle in the US is a pretty small, fractional number of even firearms murders.
Fair point. I’d just say semiautomatic rifles don’t have an inherent taste for 40 lb critters.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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tonguengroover wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:19 am
You have to consider what? You have to consider the drought thats been wreaking havoc on the foraging for all the critters.
That’s likely. The areas of CO with increasing lion encounters are not in or near new developments. It would make sense that they are expanding to seek food. Still not a reason to bypass the state wildlife biologist and enact bans from the legislature, or introduce competing predators by popular vote.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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papajim2jordan wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:35 am
58Hawken wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:54 am
papajim2jordan wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:02 pm
I've shot several coyote in defense of pets (those damn housecats). Along with a number of copperheads to which I have lost count. I get no pleasure from it. Just needed done. I draw the line at child sacrifice.
Child/pet sacrifice is apparently a price those who would ban hunting are willing to pay.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ion-attack
Perhaps there is another language you might be more familiar with so as to understand what I have tried to communicate.

It's NOT about hunting. It's not about guns. Not about any god(damn) right to do whatever. There are an infinite number of pictures available on this web gizmo with humans in the exact same situations as those of the non-human residents of this planet you have put on offer.

Hunt humans? Hell no. They may shoot back. Just kidding. Before continuing, take a breath, count to ten.

Legislation is a social experiment. If these animals are starving already, the current paradigm would seem to need tweaking. Perhaps even at the expense of hearing less from your Hawken.

We seem to have done so well with climate, population control, and living together with the rest of the inhabitants it seems that nothing stands in our way. We can't even keep our fellow travelers in a protected cage without some idiot putting themselves in danger and requiring it's destruction. Google Easter Island. Passenger Pigeon. Land and game management at it's finest.

Perhaps you see this coming. Laying the ground rules for the last available sport kill opportunity once the last of the four legged ones are on your wall.

You have taken a simple thought, transcribed into written words without malice, and turned it on it's ear. There is a word for just that change of position.

P.S. It's really not about you. Take another breath, have a beverage. If somehow you have been offended, that is your right, but not my intent. I offer no apology.
Yeah…..it ain’t my comprehension of the English language that is causing your point to be lost in long winded obfuscated overly florid prose. You’re really coming across as being more interested in hearing yourself talk than engaging in conversation. You came into this thread WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING WHAT THE LIONS NATURALLY EAT but are going to expound on how you have a better understanding of what the issue is about?

Nowhere have I said anything about “my rights” to either hunting or guns. I have stated it’s a frickin idiotic approach to wildlife management to bypass the biologists and yield to greenie social pressure because they have a “soft spot for cats”. I have since found that the lobbying is even coming from an out of state group who are trying the same thing in AZ. They know even LESS about CO wildlife needs.

I don’t care how available lion tags are for “sport hunting”. What I do care about is whether the decision is science based. If the model needs tweaking, great. That is what the department of wildlife is for. If the biologists limit tag availability to basically nil, so be it. What I don’t need is an out of state interest lobbying the legislature on how things are run in my state.

PS: Mountain lion is delicious.

Re: Colorado Senate Bill to Ban Mountain Lion Hunting

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highdesert wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:36 am
sikacz wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:18 am It’s pretty clear that loss of habitat with suitable prey is one of the underlying reasons mountain lions or any other predator attacks non traditional prey.
Exactly right! Last June I posted about the young girl in LA County who saved the family dogs from a mother bear. Bears and mountain lions come down from the Angeles National Forest into urbanized areas. Housing developments keep spreading into natural hunting grounds for animals and domestic pets are easy prey for them.
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/01/10021974 ... amily-pets
Seems increasing availability of mule deer and other prey would go some way toward fixing any issues with mountain lions. However, the issue also comes down to a shrinking ecosystem and less land area as our habitat areas expand. I certainly don’t think bans are a solution, nor do I think hunting an apex predator is. There are two reasons to kill any creature including man, first a threat to immediate family or self, and second, for food. As the OP further down said mountain lions are delicious. I’ll take his word for it, no personal experience. I can say both reindeer and horse are delicious from experience. I have a hard time with laws against killing birds of prey, seems there is a double standard. A threat is a threat and both my previous points should apply. I’m pretty sure I could come up with a recipe for bald eagles if needed. Also, I have never killed or eaten a bird of prey, just making a point. To the OP, I sympathize with your resentment of outsiders coming in to influence in your state, I don’t care for it myself. Bloomie should keep his nose out of Texas. I think some of us took this as a larger question on ecology and fairness to all life, not just specific to mountain lions and a state ban. Personally I think humanity at some point will have to acknowledge our footprint needs to be smaller. Perhaps the extent of privately owned land is too great or perhaps limits should be put on allowable development.
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