Mass shooting forestalled

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Saw this in the BBC today:

Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236

Wednesday evening, a graduation party going on in an apartment complex; guy gets warned to slow down when driving through - kids, other pedestrians present. He comes back later with an AR-15 & starts shooting in the direction of the partygoers; a woman lawfully carrying shoots & kills him before he hits anyone.

It soon came out that the decedent was a career bad guy, well known to local law enforcement.

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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From above link.
Police spokesman Tony Hazelett said the woman's quick reaction saved lives and may have prevented a mass shooting.
Mr Hazelett told a news conference that the woman who fired back did not have any law enforcement background. She has not been identified. "She's just a member of the community who was carrying her weapon lawfully," he said. "And instead of running from the threat she engaged with the threat and saved several lives."

The woman remained at the scene after the shooting, and is co-operating with investigators. Charges will not be filed against her, police added.
Yup in the UK handguns are banned, only police have them. Tasers/stun guns and pepper spray are also banned, just being caught with a taser is an automatic 5 year prison sentence. More and more police are carrying tasers in the UK.

Glad the Beeb is carrying this story.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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highdesert wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 5:52 am From above link.
Police spokesman Tony Hazelett said the woman's quick reaction saved lives and may have prevented a mass shooting.
Mr Hazelett told a news conference that the woman who fired back did not have any law enforcement background. She has not been identified. "She's just a member of the community who was carrying her weapon lawfully," he said. "And instead of running from the threat she engaged with the threat and saved several lives."

The woman remained at the scene after the shooting, and is co-operating with investigators. Charges will not be filed against her, police added.
Yup in the UK handguns are banned, only police have them. Tasers/stun guns and pepper spray are also banned, just being caught with a taser is an automatic 5 year prison sentence. More and more police are carrying tasers in the UK.

Glad the Beeb is carrying this story.
The elevated threat level posed by armed paramilitary groups means that, unlike the majority of police services in the United Kingdom and the Garda Síochána in the neighbouring Republic of Ireland, all PSNI officers receive firearms training and are routinely armed while on duty,

Northern Ireland...

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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F4FEver wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:46 am
highdesert wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 5:52 am From above link.
Police spokesman Tony Hazelett said the woman's quick reaction saved lives and may have prevented a mass shooting.
Mr Hazelett told a news conference that the woman who fired back did not have any law enforcement background. She has not been identified. "She's just a member of the community who was carrying her weapon lawfully," he said. "And instead of running from the threat she engaged with the threat and saved several lives."

The woman remained at the scene after the shooting, and is co-operating with investigators. Charges will not be filed against her, police added.
Yup in the UK handguns are banned, only police have them. Tasers/stun guns and pepper spray are also banned, just being caught with a taser is an automatic 5 year prison sentence. More and more police are carrying tasers in the UK.

Glad the Beeb is carrying this story.
The elevated threat level posed by armed paramilitary groups means that, unlike the majority of police services in the United Kingdom and the Garda Síochána in the neighbouring Republic of Ireland, all PSNI officers receive firearms training and are routinely armed while on duty,

Northern Ireland...
Yes Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK where all cops are armed all the time. Only specialized units of the Guards carry in the Republic. One Scottish chief constable tried regularly arming some constables to see how the public reacted, the experiment ended quickly. Cops wear stab vests (except PSNI), only authorized firearms officers wear ballistic vests.

Brits travel regularly to the Continent and cops there are all armed so they're used to seeing armed cops, but they apparently want their cops to be unarmed. Don't know if they'll be able to maintain it forever.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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Heretic wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:25 pm Saw this in the BBC today:

Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236
The moral of the story is don't mess with Appalachian women!
All religions united with government are more or less inimical to liberty. All, separated from government, are compatible with liberty.-Henry Clay
Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms.—Aristotle

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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CDFingers wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:56 pm It's easy to extrapolate this out to just about anything. Point is, if you carry, you have a responsibility to respond.

CDFingers
Nit to pick. You do not have a responsibility to respond. You do not have tactical training, armor or backup and are quite likely to be targeted as the shooter by LEO. You may have a reasonably safe opportunity to respond and may have a personal moral obligation, but you have no responsibility to end up dead. Remember, it is self defense that is the root of CCW. That may or may not involve engaging an active shooter that isn't shooting at you.

That said, I am glad the woman was able to find the opportunity and will to stop it.

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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featureless wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:20 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:56 pm It's easy to extrapolate this out to just about anything. Point is, if you carry, you have a responsibility to respond.

CDFingers
Nit to pick. You do not have a responsibility to respond. You do not have tactical training, armor or backup and are quite likely to be targeted as the shooter by LEO. You may have a reasonably safe opportunity to respond and may have a personal moral obligation, but you have no responsibility to end up dead. Remember, it is self defense that is the root of CCW. That may or may not involve engaging an active shooter that isn't shooting at you.

That said, I am glad the woman was able to find the opportunity and will to stop it.
Agree.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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sikacz wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:22 pm
featureless wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:20 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:56 pm It's easy to extrapolate this out to just about anything. Point is, if you carry, you have a responsibility to respond.

CDFingers
Nit to pick. You do not have a responsibility to respond. You do not have tactical training, armor or backup and are quite likely to be targeted as the shooter by LEO. You may have a reasonably safe opportunity to respond and may have a personal moral obligation, but you have no responsibility to end up dead. Remember, it is self defense that is the root of CCW. That may or may not involve engaging an active shooter that isn't shooting at you.

That said, I am glad the woman was able to find the opportunity and will to stop it.
Agree.
Exactly. You are less obligated than LEO and they have very little, if any.

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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CDFingers wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:57 pm I'd say you're morally obligated to respond, not legally obligated.

CDFingers
While I personally tend to agree with that, John over at Active Self Protection and Rob Pincus have both said while carrying your first obligation is to yourself and yours and if you choose to bug out then you've made the correct decision. I've heard that elsewhere but I recall those two people.

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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CDFingers wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:57 pm I'd say you're morally obligated to respond, not legally obligated.

CDFingers
I don't disagree, provided there is some reasonable chance of survival. My first obligation is to keep my family safe. Second is to ensure I keep breathing to meet the first obligation. Now, we're I to come across a school shooting like we've just witnessed, I don't think I could not try to save some kids, carrying or not. On the other hand, if one dude is drawing on another dude, presumably over that lady over there, nope, not involving myself in a cock fight. Intervention when innocence is at risk is always on my mind. Intervention in stupid? Not so much.

As a Californian, even if it is a totally legit defensive gun use, I will be arrested, I will rack up some legal fees, I will likely have employer problems and I will likely get hammered in civil court. That's aside from the mental health hit of having to kill someone in defense of self or another. Check the moral obligation very closely. Yes sometimes it's worth the aftermath. Most times, just be a good witness.

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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I agree. This is one of those things you have to think through long before a shooting incident, I wouldn't put the "moral guilt card" on anyone. Just because the media applauds a shooting, doesn't mean a DA will and yes there is the potential civil lawsuit by the perp or the perp's family even if it's declared a clean shoot. We aren't covered by qualified immunity like cops.
Self-defense laws in at least 23 states (Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee West Virginia and Wisconsin) provide civil immunity under certain self- defense circumstances.
Additionally, some states (including Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Wisconsin, and Wyoming) have replaced the common law “reasonable person” standard, which placed the burden on the defendant to show that their defensive action were reasonable, with a “presumption of reasonableness,” or “presumption of fear,” which shifts the burden of proof to the prosecutor to prove a negative.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and ... round.aspx
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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CDFingers wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:56 pm It's easy to extrapolate this out to just about anything. Point is, if you carry, you have a responsibility to respond.

CDFingers
That really depends and isn't absolute. Vast majority of those 'who carry' aren't trained to run toward the sound of gun shots. Guy in Denver did that, ran toward a guy who shot(ambushed) a cop, dispatched the guy...picked up bad guy's AR and was shot(killed) by police.
Gent who ran toward Gabby Gifford shooting..onto scene with gun drawn and was 'almost' shot...
I carry to protect me and mine. If I'm in a grocery, and I hear gun shots..WE heading for nearest and furthest away, exit. I'm not going to leave my wife and run towards shots.

Featureless, others above beat me to it.

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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F4FEver wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 8:17 am
CDFingers wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:56 pm It's easy to extrapolate this out to just about anything. Point is, if you carry, you have a responsibility to respond.

CDFingers
That really depends and isn't absolute. Vast majority of those 'who carry' aren't trained to run toward the sound of gun shots. Guy in Denver did that, ran toward a guy who shot(ambushed) a cop, dispatched the guy...picked up bad guy's AR and was shot(killed) by police.
Gent who ran toward Gabby Gifford shooting..onto scene with gun drawn and was 'almost' shot...
I carry to protect me and mine. If I'm in a grocery, and I hear gun shots..WE heading for nearest and furthest away, exit. I'm not going to leave my wife and run towards shots.

Featureless, others above beat me to it.

Same as the CO shooting but in 2018 in AL.
On Thanksgiving night, the sounds of gunshots inside an Alabama mall sent shoppers diving for cover and sprinting for exits. Outside the mall, Emantic Fitzgerald Bradford Jr. pulled out a gun and rushed to protect shoppers, his family said.

But Mr. Bradford was soon dead. An off-duty police officer working security at the mall, Riverchase Galleria in Hoover, Ala., fatally shot him, the authorities said. In the days that followed, the official account by the Hoover Police Department of what happened inside and outside the mall has shifted drastically.
The radically changing stories by the authorities have left Mr. Bradford’s parents, April Pipkins and Emantic Bradford Sr., distraught and demanding answers. Mr. Bradford, 21, was licensed to carry a firearm, his family said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/us/b ... oting.html

Like the Arvada, CO case everyone is sorry about the killing of a "good samaritan", but he's still dead. Black guy with a gun must be the perp. :sarcasm:

We train cops to shoot at people with guns, they really aren't taught to evaluate a situation.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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highdesert wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:09 am
F4FEver wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 8:17 am
CDFingers wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:56 pm It's easy to extrapolate this out to just about anything. Point is, if you carry, you have a responsibility to respond.

CDFingers
That really depends and isn't absolute. Vast majority of those 'who carry' aren't trained to run toward the sound of gun shots. Guy in Denver did that, ran toward a guy who shot(ambushed) a cop, dispatched the guy...picked up bad guy's AR and was shot(killed) by police.
Gent who ran toward Gabby Gifford shooting..onto scene with gun drawn and was 'almost' shot...
I carry to protect me and mine. If I'm in a grocery, and I hear gun shots..WE heading for nearest and furthest away, exit. I'm not going to leave my wife and run towards shots.

Featureless, others above beat me to it.

Same as the CO shooting but in 2018 in AL.
On Thanksgiving night, the sounds of gunshots inside an Alabama mall sent shoppers diving for cover and sprinting for exits. Outside the mall, Emantic Fitzgerald Bradford Jr. pulled out a gun and rushed to protect shoppers, his family said.

But Mr. Bradford was soon dead. An off-duty police officer working security at the mall, Riverchase Galleria in Hoover, Ala., fatally shot him, the authorities said. In the days that followed, the official account by the Hoover Police Department of what happened inside and outside the mall has shifted drastically.
The radically changing stories by the authorities have left Mr. Bradford’s parents, April Pipkins and Emantic Bradford Sr., distraught and demanding answers. Mr. Bradford, 21, was licensed to carry a firearm, his family said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/us/b ... oting.html

Like the Arvada, CO case everyone is sorry about the killing of a "good samaritan", but he's still dead. Black guy with a gun must be the perp. :sarcasm:

We train cops to shoot at people with guns, they really aren't taught to evaluate a situation.
Bingo! Sarcasm or not, you don’t want to be involved with a gun when cops arrive.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Mass shooting forestalled

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As I was taught in my CHL class never assume anything. The example given is your at a gas station at night filling up your car. You notice a woman running from two people that have guns drawn running after her. You draw your gun to try a intervene to protect her. Turns out the people running after her are two undercover police officers trying to make an arrest for narcotic drug deals. You are now in a heap of trouble for interfering with the police in there execution of their lawful duties.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

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