Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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Payne noted that other rights enshrined in the Constitution, including the First, Fourth, Fifth, Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments "vest before the age of 21," and said no federal appellate court or the Supreme Court "has squarely determined that the Second Amendment's rights vest at age 21."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/handguns-f ... -virginia/

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-we ... uns-tossed

States' rights apparently are also not a thing.

Four legs good, two legs gazpacho.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CDFingers wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:29 pm
States' rights apparently are also not a thing.
Not when they collide with the 14th, they don't.

I read the ruling. It's actually a fair holding consistent with Heller and Bruen. And, believe it or not, champions expanding rights rather than restricting them. The feds argument against 18-20 not being "the people" would force the interpretation that blacks, women and Native Americans could also be bared from the 2A as not "the people." That clearly isn't "right" in this day and age, so glad the judge brought it to the table.

Now, I can hold a personal opinion that some 18-20 year olds shouldn't have guns (actually, age has little to do with it, I've met plenty of adults that shouldn't), but rights are rights, right?

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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They are not rights if they can be taken away, only temporary privileges. And it's clear we have NO rights, only privileges. Alito simply repealed the 9th Amendment unilaterally in Dobbs. Poof! He said rights not explicitly in the Constitution aren't rights, contradicting 9A directly.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CDFingers wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 6:14 pm A woman's fourth amendment right to privacy goes out the window. Because conservative reasons argle bargle.

CDFingers
Yes and no. The ruling was on a constitutionality enumerated right, not on abortion or privacy. We were warned that tying abortion to privacy was risky. And we didn't do anything about it. We were also warned that ending the filibuster for supreme court justices could be catastrophically bad but we did it anyway.

That said, I'm with you, CDFingers. A woman's choice over what happens with her body is absolute. The constitution, however, is mute on it. I'd like to see the Dems and moderate republican (if those exist anymore) legislate the right. Alas... There's guns to flap about.

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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Oh, stop with the Supreme Court filibuster blame game. The Republicans were going to kill it regardless of what Reid did. Congressional obstruction is their exclusive prerogative, not ours. Look at the blanket holds and blue slip games still going on today.

The Constitution was written a couple centuries before modern neurobiology came along. If we started again from scratch today, objective Framers might have to wrangle with the problem that some kinds of impulse control - violence for one - that we associate with maturity don't fully develop in many cases until the twenties, while still wanting to secure the franchise and other rights at adulthood. Thornier thicket than "are women, Blacks, and indigenous North Americans people?"
Amendment IX, US Constitution wrote:The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X, US Constitution wrote:The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people
Herein lies the rub - Alito and his ilk hold that X supersedes IX, that state powers supercede individual rights. It's challenging to write co-equal but non-contradictory amendments. Ask the Second about that problem. :lol:

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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wings wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 7:13 am Oh, stop with the Supreme Court filibuster blame game. The Republicans were going to kill it regardless of what Reid did.
Of course they were. Look how Mitch TOTALLY moved the goal posts to get Barrett confirmed in the September before the 2020 election, reversing himself COMPLETELY after blocking Garland for over 10 months, making up a total bullshit excuse. Reid's action was no more than a tiny fig leaf for what Mc ALWAYS intended to do!
Congressional obstruction is their exclusive prerogative, not ours. Look at the blanket holds and blue slip games still going on today.

The Constitution was written a couple centuries before modern neurobiology came along. If we started again from scratch today, objective Framers might have to wrangle with the problem that some kinds of impulse control - violence for one - that we associate with maturity don't fully develop in many cases until the twenties, while still wanting to secure the franchise and other rights at adulthood. Thornier thicket than "are women, Blacks, and indigenous North Americans people?"
Amendment IX, US Constitution wrote:The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X, US Constitution wrote:The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people
Herein lies the rub - Alito and his ilk hold that X supersedes IX, that state powers supercede individual rights. It's challenging to write co-equal but non-contradictory amendments. Ask the Second about that problem. :lol:
Amendment IX was virtually REPEALED by 6 Justices in Dobbs when, directly contradicting IX, Alito wrote that since abortion isn't an EXPLICIT right enumerated in the Constitution, it wasn't a right. Their effective repeal of IX totally violates Article V of the Constitution's body.

Amendment X has NEVER been fully honored.
Where were "States' Rights" of the Free States when the Fugitive Slave Act was enacted and upheld in Dred Scott? Nowhere!
Where are the "States' Rights" of Blue states when they may be FORCED to honor Missouri's crazy "Any nut can buy, carry and conceal a gun anytime, anywhere, without ANY limits or background checks" law?
Where are Blue States' Rights when DeSatan is using Floriduh tax-payers' money to ship immigrants from Texas (ie, NOT Floriduh) to New York, Chicago, Boston, and Nantucket?

And when have the last 4 words of A10 EVER been honored or recognized in law "or to the People." ????????
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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Prior to 2013 when Reid pulled the nuclear trigger, it was debated internally by Democrats and Republicans. John McCain warned Republicans about pulling the nuclear trigger, he argued that they would eventually be in the minority and without it the Senate would run just like the House, the majority rules and the minority has no power. When Harry Reid with the support of the Democratic majority did pull the trigger the filibuster from cabinet nominees and district and circuit court nominees was removed. McConnell and Republicans extended it to SCOTUS nominations. Two of Nixon's nominees to SCOTUS, Clement Haynsworth and G Harold Carswell were blocked by the Senate and Reagan's nomination of Robert Bork was blocked.

McConnell ignored blue slips, I don't know if they're even used anymore. Senatorial holds still exits and Tuberville's hold on military promotions is vile.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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featureless wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:55 pm
CDFingers wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:29 pm
States' rights apparently are also not a thing.
Not when they collide with the 14th, they don't.

I read the ruling. It's actually a fair holding consistent with Heller and Bruen. And, believe it or not, champions expanding rights rather than restricting them. The feds argument against 18-20 not being "the people" would force the interpretation that blacks, women and Native Americans could also be bared from the 2A as not "the people." That clearly isn't "right" in this day and age, so glad the judge brought it to the table.

Now, I can hold a personal opinion that some 18-20 year olds shouldn't have guns (actually, age has little to do with it, I've met plenty of adults that shouldn't), but rights are rights, right?
That's the rub isn't it? Easy access, regardless of age, for people who 'most' would agree(unfortunately, after the fact..after the shooting) they shouldn't have been 'allowed' to buy a gun. No solution but I think something more comprehensive than a clean record, a driver's license and $ should be considered(and in states that allow private sales, not even the first two).

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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F4FEver wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 8:58 am
featureless wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:55 pm
CDFingers wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 5:29 pm
States' rights apparently are also not a thing.
Not when they collide with the 14th, they don't.

I read the ruling. It's actually a fair holding consistent with Heller and Bruen. And, believe it or not, champions expanding rights rather than restricting them. The feds argument against 18-20 not being "the people" would force the interpretation that blacks, women and Native Americans could also be bared from the 2A as not "the people." That clearly isn't "right" in this day and age, so glad the judge brought it to the table.

Now, I can hold a personal opinion that some 18-20 year olds shouldn't have guns (actually, age has little to do with it, I've met plenty of adults that shouldn't), but rights are rights, right?
That's the rub isn't it? Easy access, regardless of age, for people who 'most' would agree(unfortunately, after the fact..after the shooting) they shouldn't have been 'allowed' to buy a gun. No solution but I think something more comprehensive than a clean record, a driver's license and $ should be considered(and in states that allow private sales, not even the first two).
It is the rub. My personal opinion is that anyone who voted for Trump should be banned from voting for life under intellectual defect, but... :)

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CDFingers wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 9:27 am The point is the hypocrisy: states can over ride a woman's bodily autonomy but can't limit the age on guns--she can never do it but he can wait till he's 21 and then gets to do it. Just stunningly unfair. Must vote out red hats for seventeen election cycles.

CDFingers
Another 'rub'...GOPathetic all about taking the rights away from
-women
-children
-voters
-anybody not white
-any LGBTQ person
-anybody not 'christian'

But they do love the 2A...

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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There are lawsuits in federal courts challenging state abortion bans, a number of them challenge the weird Texas abortion law. These will work their way up to SCOTUS and we'll finally get a decision on the Texas law and DAs abdicating their duty to prosecute laws and allowing civil suits instead. In the interim it's imperative to keep medications for abortion available.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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highdesert wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:40 am There are lawsuits in federal courts challenging state abortion bans, a number of them challenge the weird Texas abortion law. These will work their way up to SCOTUS and we'll finally get a decision on the Texas law and DAs abdicating their duty to prosecute laws and allowing civil suits instead. In the interim it's imperative to keep medications for abortion available.
And OTC birth control medicine and devices for all folk.

But definitely need more and earlier sex education. Nobody should be as uninformed as most men of my generation when it came to something as important as sex.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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sig230 wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:47 am
highdesert wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:40 am There are lawsuits in federal courts challenging state abortion bans, a number of them challenge the weird Texas abortion law. These will work their way up to SCOTUS and we'll finally get a decision on the Texas law and DAs abdicating their duty to prosecute laws and allowing civil suits instead. In the interim it's imperative to keep medications for abortion available.
And OTC birth control medicine and devices for all folk.

But definitely need more and earlier sex education. Nobody should be as uninformed as most men of my generation when it came to something as important as sex.
I totally agree !
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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sig230 wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:47 am
highdesert wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:40 am There are lawsuits in federal courts challenging state abortion bans, a number of them challenge the weird Texas abortion law. These will work their way up to SCOTUS and we'll finally get a decision on the Texas law and DAs abdicating their duty to prosecute laws and allowing civil suits instead. In the interim it's imperative to keep medications for abortion available.
And OTC birth control medicine and devices for all folk.

But definitely need more and earlier sex education. Nobody should be as uninformed as most men of my generation when it came to something as important as sex.
Unfortunately banning this is in the cross hairs of not only a LOT of state legislatures but also in the mind of at least one SCOTUS judge, Thomas.
Back to the 1950s.

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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Personally, I'm for this ruling. Far as I'm concerned, old enough to be drafted, old enough to exercise all of your adulthood rights, and that means *ALL* of them...including those under the 2A. Rights are rights, and privileges are privileges. Old enough to fight, old enough to vote, and old enough for the rest of your rights, too.

I might also add that there is nothing illegal about an 18-20 year old owning a handgun. Nor is there anything illegal about an 18-20 year old possessing "handgun ammunition". Rather, what the law says is that you cannot sell handguns or "handgun ammunition" to someone 18-20 years old. However, if that 18-20 year old has a handgun gifted to him/her by Dad or Mom or some other close family member--where that's legal, of course, and it still is in quite a few states--then there's no problem with that 18-20 year old going to a range and enjoying some marksmanship practice.

Likewise with ammo; it's not illegal for an 18-20 year old to possess it or use it. Rather, it's that an FFL cannot sell it to someone under 21 or they risk losing their FFL. However, nothing in the law says an 18-20 year old cannot handload his or her own ammo, say, .38/357 or 9mm or .45 ACP or whatever else.
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Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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I agree CT, it would be nice to have some consistency in our laws. Whether it's age of majority/adulthood, age at which someone can legally sign a contract, can legally buy and drink alcohol publicly, serve in the military without parental permission, enter into marriage without parental permission, be tried as an adult and of course purchase a firearm. Like with all legislation, special interests have been at work.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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sig230 wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:47 am
highdesert wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:40 am There are lawsuits in federal courts challenging state abortion bans, a number of them challenge the weird Texas abortion law. These will work their way up to SCOTUS and we'll finally get a decision on the Texas law and DAs abdicating their duty to prosecute laws and allowing civil suits instead. In the interim it's imperative to keep medications for abortion available.
And OTC birth control medicine and devices for all folk.

But definitely need more and earlier sex education. Nobody should be as uninformed as most men of my generation when it came to something as important as sex.
BUT ohh so many GOP controlled school boards want to nix that as well. Most places they did that and the teen pregnancy rate went thru the roof. GOPathetic are slow learners.

As for the draft..I think males still need to register..why are women not required, in this day and age ?

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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highdesert wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:07 am I agree CT, it would be nice to have some consistency in our laws. Whether it's age of majority/adulthood, age at which someone can legally sign a contract, can legally buy and drink alcohol publicly, serve in the military without parental permission, enter into marriage without parental permission, be tried as an adult and of course purchase a firearm. Like with all legislation, special interests have been at work.
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments show that the states can try and pull off anything they want to, but that the SCOTUS has the last call. That states can shit can a woman's right to choose yet protect an 18 year old's right to have a concealable weapon shows once again how money makes strange bedfellows and democracy a messy business.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CDFingers wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 10:47 am
highdesert wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:07 am I agree CT, it would be nice to have some consistency in our laws. Whether it's age of majority/adulthood, age at which someone can legally sign a contract, can legally buy and drink alcohol publicly, serve in the military without parental permission, enter into marriage without parental permission, be tried as an adult and of course purchase a firearm. Like with all legislation, special interests have been at work.
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments show that the states can try and pull off anything they want to, but that the SCOTUS has the last call. That states can shit can a woman's right to choose yet protect an 18 year old's right to have a concealable weapon shows once again how money makes strange bedfellows and democracy a messy business.

CDFingers
Yup the two political parties wanted new voters, one of the reasons they agreed to lower the voting age to 18. 18 year olds tend to be more fit and with 18 the majority age, they could enlist in the volunteer military or if conscription returns in the future they can be drafted. Fodder for old men's wars.

RBG advocated arguing that the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment justifies legalizing abortion. First abortion medications have to be legal in all 50 states, again doing it by court decision alone isn't enough, it has to be made part of federal statute law.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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