I have a box of PMC .44 S&W Special 110 grain, not made any more, I can't find anything about it on the googlewebs. I'd appreciate any info you have on it.
Mainly I'd like to know the velocity.
I found one other brand of custom loads that makes110 grain 44 special, it's 2030 fps, which puts the power factor (recoil) at the high end of 44 special but lower than 44 mag.

power factor calculator: https://www.dillonprecision.com/power-f ... lator.html

AlterCocker wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:40 pm I have a box of PMC .44 S&W Special 110 grain, not made any more, I can't find anything about it on the googlewebs. I'd appreciate any info you have on it.
Mainly I'd like to know the velocity.
I found one other brand of custom loads that makes110 grain 44 special, it's 2030 fps, which puts the power factor (recoil) at the high end of 44 special but lower than 44 mag.

power factor calculator: https://www.dillonprecision.com/power-f ... lator.html

Seems rare.

https://collectibleammunition.com/produ ... 44-sw-spl/

https://www.handgunforum.net/threads/tu ... lets.3092/

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t ... ular/37833

I read about this type of bullet years ago in Handloader. Must not have caught on, but seems kinda cool. Wonder if they whistle in flight?

Fascinating, thanks. Looks like it is quite rare, and these were a technological experiment that didn't meet expectations and therefore didn't find a market. One post says they were introduced in 1990 and dropped in 1991 because of poor sales.

Started finding out more. At first they were bronze with a thin steel rim, those were banned because it was thought they could penetrate body armor, although reports seem to indicate that wasn't true. Anyway, the company then started making them out of copper and those were legal (that's what I have). They just weren't popular or weren't marketed well, so they were discontinued.

The "THP" on the box stands for Truncated Hollow Point. There is a plastic plug inside to contain the gasses until they leave the barrel.

They were nicknamed "cookie cutters" from the belief they would punch out a tubular channel, so they weren't intended to expand. Seems they might just fold up if they hit anything hard? They were made in 66 grain 38+P, somewhere in the 1400 to 1800 fps range, as well as 110 grain .44, I haven't found anything on the velocity for the .44's. They are moderately collectable.

Holy crap, AlterCocker. A handgun round advertised at 2030 fps. Very interesting. And 110 grains is a crazy light 44 spl bullet. I'm intrigued.

Liberty sells a similar design today - all copper hollow points that are extremely light for caliber. Nothing in .44, but they have .45 ACP and Colt offerings weighing in at a hefty 78 grains and rated at 1800 fps. They also offer 50 grain .357 rated at 2100 fps and a 60 grain 10mm at 2400.

From what I've read, they shoot flat and the recoil is minimal but the terminal ballistics are not great. Generally thought of as a gimmick round, but I imagine they would be effective for longer-range target shooting and possibly varmints.

wings wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:23 am From what I've read, they shoot flat and the recoil is minimal but the terminal ballistics are not great. Generally thought of as a gimmick round, but I imagine they would be effective for longer-range target shooting and possibly varmints.

For these "Cookie Cutters", like the ones I have, the concept is different from standard terminal ballistics. Instead of a wound channel that closes up on itself as we see in the ballistic gel tests, it is "supposed" to cut a tube, slicing through tissue, so the wound, although smaller, doesn't close back up. I haven't found anything that proves or disputes whether that actually worked.

I'm probably going to try to sell these to collectors rather than run tests on them. I found some past sales on GB that went for around $5 per round (and some being offered at twice that, with no one biting).

Here's a reasonable substitute in current production:

https://lehighdefense.com/429-diameter- ... count.html

https://underwoodammo.com/44-special-12 ... ense-ammo/

"Only" 1250 FPS, but frankly I'm skeptical of that >2000 FPS claim, anywyay, unless you've chronoed those old PMC. If I had a Charter Arms Bulldog or similar small .44, I'd be pretty interested in these. Two and a half bucks a round isn't much fun, but in a revolver you don't need to waste a lot of them verifying function, so one box of 20 should be a lifetime supply, unless you have more than 4 Bulldogs.

wings wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:23 am Liberty sells a similar design today - all copper hollow points that are extremely light for caliber. Nothing in .44, but they have .45 ACP and Colt offerings weighing in at a hefty 78 grains and rated at 1800 fps. They also offer 50 grain .357 rated at 2100 fps and a 60 grain 10mm at 2400.

From what I've read, they shoot flat and the recoil is minimal but the terminal ballistics are not great. Generally thought of as a gimmick round, but I imagine they would be effective for longer-range target shooting and possibly varmints.

I'm gonna bet heavily that those .357s and 10 mms are EXTREMELY loud (like 5.7 loud), and that the .45s are significantly more deafening than your grandfather's 1911 or SAA. Using a light bullet and lots of powder to achieve high velocity is going to mean the peak of the pressure curve is shifted farther down the barrel and the pressure at the muzzle when the bullet uncorks it is going to be higher.

And that's before you factor in the sonic boom! Subsonic .45 in a revolver is still stupid loud for me.

I was looking at the Underwood offerings too. They have a 160 grain Phillips head in .44 Magnum at 1800 fps. Probably a closer match.

The problem with buying something as an investment planning to sell to collectors? If you want a better payoff, you still have to wait. Hold on to it. Maybe you'll get a better price. Maybe you'll need it.

Actually there isn't a lot of volume difference in the sound of different caliber handgun rounds and the barrel length might even have a greater effect than the caliber. They are all above what we were built to absorb.

As that chart lays out, the difference between .45 Colt and .357 Magnum is around 10 dB. Because the decibel scale is logarithmic, that's a LOT.

Heaven knows that .22LR is tolerable without ears on in a rifle, although still ill-advised, but I can absolutely tell the difference between subsonic and supersonic rounds from a handgun through a couple of layers.

There is a pubmed article on these, I can only see the abstract. Does anyone know how to find the full article?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2262780/

wings wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:13 pm The problem with buying something as an investment planning to sell to collectors? If you want a better payoff, you still have to wait. Hold on to it. Maybe you'll get a better price. Maybe you'll need it.

I didn't buy it as an investment. Someone I know had some old stuff he wanted to get rid of, I bought some of calibers that I shoot, and this intrigued me; when I got home I started trying to figure out what it was, couldn't find much at all until @papajim2jordan pointed me in the right direction at the start of this thread.

Also got a box of 200 grain Blazer aluminum .44 magnum, I believe it's no longer made, shot a bit of that and it's accurate and quite manageable.

AlterCocker wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:34 pm There is a pubmed article on these, I can only see the abstract. Does anyone know how to find the full article?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2262780/

Wow! It worked as designed? And someone got a forensic medical paper out of it?

Well, it was the '90s. Murder rates were stupid high back then. Whole different conversation there.

Journal of Forensic Science isn't going to be the easiest source to find. Probably available at a med school library. You can buy it for $25 online from ASTM, or request a reprint through the Copyright Clearance Center link on the right side of the page.
https://www.astm.org/jfs12984j.html

Wings is right, it's an old article. Since it's behind a paywall you'd have to find a major university library in your area that subscribes to the Journal of Forensic Sciences and goes back to 1990. You should be able to search their collections online.

They might have medical schools with pathology residencies or forensic pathology programs or they might just offer advanced degrees in forensic science. https://www.forensicscolleges.com/usa

wings wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:23 am

AlterCocker wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:34 pm There is a pubmed article on these, I can only see the abstract. Does anyone know how to find the full article?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2262780/

Wow! It worked as designed? And someone got a forensic medical paper out of it?

Well, it was the '90s. Murder rates were stupid high back then. Whole different conversation there.

Journal of Forensic Science isn't going to be the easiest source to find. Probably available at a med school library. You can buy it for $25 online from ASTM, or request a reprint through the Copyright Clearance Center link on the right side of the page.
https://www.astm.org/jfs12984j.html

Crud. The U of WA isn't on the ASTM list, but WSU is. I wonder if I can request the article through our library? Probably enough of a nuisance that I'm tempted just to cough up the 25 bucks, but I'm not sure I'm that curious about a product that's so rare.

A couple of searches didn't turn up similar papers for the Lehigh or similar Honey Badger bullets, but my Google Fu is known to be weak.

I have never known a librarian to turn away from an access challenge, and I know a lot of librarians.

Turns out all I had to do to get it was to open the link to ASTM while I was on campus.

Let's see if I can attach the PDF for your consideration.

Let me know if that downloads for you.

Buck13 wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:49 pm Let me know if that downloads for you.

Received, and reading it. Quite interesting, thank you.